Tightening significance threshold just makes this fishing more difficult, Bayesian reasoning doesn't help much either, because you have to guestimate reasonable priors. What does really help against fishing like this is requirement to preregister your studies.
Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’
11–20 of 142 posts
Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’
#12Earlier quoted context omitted.
I usually don't see climate science being communicated with p-values and poor significance cutoffs. The place where you usually see this used is for communicating single study results (which often enough are things that you probably shouldn't communicate at all). To get an idea how climate science is trying to communicate look at the summary for policymakers of the SR15 report: https://report.ipcc.ch/sr15/pdf/sr15_sp…
That's not different than communicating significance with p < 0.05 , p < 0.01, p < 0.001 etc as is usually done in paper. There is again a cutoff.
The problem with p-values is that the shape of the resulting cutoff just isn't what we're looking for. We want something along the lines of "What is the probability that this hypothesis is true, and how true is it?", and "What is the probability that this result could have happened even if the hypothesis is false?" is only an approximation at the best of times, and at worst, downright misleading. That's true even before we consider some of the other issues that my English kind of elides over, but the math contains; one of my problems with significance testing as it is commonly done is that there are actually ranges of hypotheses, and it really overprivileges "the" "null" hypothesis; I could write a decently-sized HN post just criticizing those two quoted words.
There is no rigid process that can produce the answer we really want, but I think we can provide a selection of better default tools. An example of one that has already been deployed to some extent is "power analysis", which is not a direct answer but lets people crafting studies analyze how big their studies will have to be before running them. We can build more tools like that.
Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’
#13Though I would have personally used statistically instead of strictly in the sentence: >Strictly speaking, he says, “there’s no difference between a P value of 0.049 and a P value of 0.051.”
Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’
#14Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’
#15Major problem with "significance" is that in some areas of research (say psychology), it's possible to gather lots of data(let 1000 people fill complex questionnaire) and from that data to fish for theory that's significant (in your sample Republicans might have been dumber than Democrats). But given the size of the sample and number of theories you test, you are bound to find something significant even if that isn't…
Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’
#16The problem isn't that P=.05 is an arbitrary measure of significance. The problem is that only publishing significant results is a bias against the null hypothesis.
Let's say you're doing a study of flipping coins. The null hypothesis is that the coin is evenly weighted. If the null hypothesis is true, when you flip a coin once, it will come up heads with P=.5. If you flip the coin twice, the null hypothesis is that both flips come up heads with P=.25. The probability of all coins coming up heads is P=0.125 for 3 flips, P=0.0625 for 4 flips, and P=.03125 for 5 flips. So if we flip a coin 5 times, and get heads all 5 times, we can conclude that the coin is weighted in some way with P=0.03125.
Let's say all the major journals of coin flipping only publish results with the high significance of PNow somewhere down the line, Robert flips a coin 5 times and gets 5 heads. This result has P=.03125, which meets the requirement of PNature and Science magazines do front page pieces with headlines "Quarters Found Heavy-headed" and "Washington Shows His Face" respectively. A casino hires Robert as a consultant for the design of their coin-flipping games. His quarter-flipping study is cited in the abstracts of two dime-flipping studies and a half-dollar flipping study. During the trial of a murderer who placed quarters tails-side up on his victims, Robert is called as an expert witness to say that the coins were placed there, not flipped there.
A week later Sally flips a quarter 5 times and gets 2 heads and 3 tails. She sends the results of her study to the AJCFS noting a failure to reproduce Robert's result, but her study is rejected because it has P=.3125.
Now, if you survey the AJCFS and all the other academic journals on coin flipping, you'd conclude that quarters are significantly weighted towards heads. But in fact, the null hypothesis is true: quarters are pretty evenly weighted. Robert's low-P result is exactly what you'd expect to happen eventually if you have enough people perform the 5-quarter-flip experiment--in fact, if a lot of people are studying coin flips, the P of getting a low-P result approaches P=1. But because the AJCFS has a P=.05 requirement, they've created a bias against the null hypothesis, which deceives the public into thinking that flipped quarters are more likely to come up heads than tails.
This is likely the reason why so many fields, most notably psychology[2], are having a replication crisis[3] and a similar effect can be used in P-hacking[4] to bolster results that are essentially fake.
Unlike coin-flipping, fields with replication crises like psychology and medicine have real affects on real people's lives. It's irresponsible and unethical for journals to publish with a bias against the null hypothesis, and adjusting the P-value requirements to another significance requirement, even a less arbitrary one, doesn't fix the issue.
The solution, I think, is for journals to commit to publish studies before the study has been performed, based on the methodology, previous studies on the subject, and qualifications of the researcher. This would mean that many, many studies would be published with null results, and that would be a good thing.
[1] There are 32 possible outcomes for flipping a coin 5 times. If we group them by how many heads and tails, we can calculate a probability for each outcome:
HHHHH 1 result of 5 heads -> P = 1/32 = .03125
HHHHT
HHHTH
HHTHH 5 results of 4 heads, 1 tails -> P = 5/32 = .15625
HTHHH
THHHH
HHHTT
HHTHT
HHTTH
HTHHT
HTHTH
HTTHH 10 results of 3 heads, 2 tails -> P = 10/32 = .3125
THHHT
THHTH
THTHH
TTHHH
HHTTT
HTHTT
HTTHT
HTTTH
THHTT 10 results of 2 heads, 3 tails -> P = 10/32 = .3125
THTHT
THTTH
TTHHT
TTHTH
TTTHH
HTTTT
THTTT
TTHTT 5 results of 1 heads, 4 tails -> P = 5/32 = .15625
TTTHT
TTTTH
TTTTT 1 result of 5 tails -> P = 1/32 = .03125
[2] https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/what-crisis-reproducibili...[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis
[4] https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou...
EDIT: Also see roenxi's excellent post on how "significant" means different things in statistics and colloquial English: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20895893
Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’
#17Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not different than communicating significance with p < 0.05 , p < 0.01, p < 0.001 etc as is usually done in paper. There is again a cutoff.
Cutoffs aren't the problem. They are inevitable; the logic is virtually identical to the question "Why can you drink at 21 and vote at 18?" Of course the Responsibility Fairy doesn't visit you that night and make you suddenly able to handle it when you weren't the day before, it's just that at scale, you don't have much choice but to operate that way because everything else is just too expensive. The problem with p-v…
The first is impossible to calculate by definition. The second can be derived from p value. Virtually all journals require rigorous reporting of p values along with averages, and the justification of the statistical test used.
Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’
#18It's not the statistical analysis that's the problem, it's the bad "science" and irresponsible journalism.
Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not different than communicating significance with p < 0.05 , p < 0.01, p < 0.001 etc as is usually done in paper. There is again a cutoff.
It's different in that the cut-offs are communicated with careful wording, rather than a figure.
Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’
#20The problem isn't p-values, the problem is a binary distinction between p=0.049 and p=0.051. The problem would go away if everyone understood p-values, or we replaced use of the term "statistically significant" with "3% probability we're just seeing a pattern by accident". Renaming the term to something that sounds just as binary isn't any different.