Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405 • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#151

Post by alufers » Thu, Sep 05, 2019, 8:43 AM UTC

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #27

dreamcompiler wrote: post #9

Fire truck driver here: People crash into parked fire trucks and ambulances and cop cars all the damn time . That's why we park the Big Red Truck at an angle behind the accident -- so that when the 2-ton car crashes into the 30-ton truck, the car will bounce off and the people behind the truck (us) won't be injured. I don't disagree that Tesla's software is partly to blame here, but the null experiment also has a lou…

This one time I go stopped at a fruit fly control point on the border between South Australia and Victoria, near Bordertown. The person staffing the control point indicated with hand signals for me to stop on the highway in the lane I was in. So I slowed down to walking speed and pulled off the highway into the car park next to the office. The agent then lectured me about not following instructions and that she could…

Could you explain what a "fruit fly control point" is, i can't find anything about it on Google and it seems interesting to me as I am not an native English speaker. Thanks.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#152

Post by jakeogh » Thu, Sep 05, 2019, 8:52 AM UTC

sjwright wrote: post #32

olliej wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... but the driver was the car...

Not legally. Has Autopilot got a driver’s license? The fact that software was in control at the time is no more relevant than the guy who asks his twelve year old son in the passenger seat to reach over and steer while the driver rifles through stuff on the back seat. Responsibility for an accident doesn’t ever rest with whatever entity is steering the car, it rests with the licensed driver. (Which could be software,…

Same reasons: https://youtu.be/w3_0x6oaDmI

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#153

Post by scarejunba » Thu, Sep 05, 2019, 8:56 AM UTC

alufers wrote: post #151

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This one time I go stopped at a fruit fly control point on the border between South Australia and Victoria, near Bordertown. The person staffing the control point indicated with hand signals for me to stop on the highway in the lane I was in. So I slowed down to walking speed and pulled off the highway into the car park next to the office. The agent then lectured me about not following instructions and that she could…

Could you explain what a "fruit fly control point" is, i can't find anything about it on Google and it seems interesting to me as I am not an native English speaker. Thanks.

https://pir.sa.gov.au/biosecurity/fruit_fly/bringing_fruit_a...

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#154

Post by jfk13 » Thu, Sep 05, 2019, 9:00 AM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #55

matt-attack wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only highlights how incredibly dumb these autopilots are. They’re incredibly diligent but completely fail at the necessary skill of understanding . What is the point of any of this if the car with all of its sensors knowingly plows into a stationary red 30-ton obstacle. It’s something that a 4 year old human would understand instantly as an object to be avoided at all cost. I really think folks don’t realize how c…

Except humans crash into stationary vehicles in lane all the damn time. Most highway pile ups are a simple crash lots of folks drive into the back of. Why's it hard? A vehicle coming from a side road has a lot of movement within your field of vision. When driving on a highway we're well used to the fact and expectation that stuff isn't stopped. When the vehicle ahead emergency brakes or stops you have the growth of s…

> Except humans crash into stationary vehicles in lane all the damn time. Most highway pile ups are a simple crash lots of folks drive into the back of. Why's it hard?

Humans get inattentive and distracted, and humans follow too close for current conditions and speed. There's no excuse for either of those factors to apply to an autopilot system. If they do, it's badly designed.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#155

Post by carlmr » Thu, Sep 05, 2019, 9:02 AM UTC

brownbat wrote: post #59

macintux wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistics makes for a tough sell to the survivors. “Yes, this autonomous vehicle killed your son who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but someone else’s son would have died in an unrelated accident somewhere else were it not for autonomy.”

You absolutely can't challenge someone's personal experience with statistics, but something about this line of argument still troubles me. I've lost a handful of close friends to car accidents. If survivorship grants standing, then I'm for doing almost anything to reduce the tens of thousands of US road deaths each year. Survivors have been angry at safety tech before, but we generally ignore them. I've known people…

>We sometimes throw around this baseline of the natural accident rate of drivers, and that's slightly lying with statistics. Accidents are not evenly distributed across all drivers.

Not only drivers, but also roads. I would imagine most people using Autopilot use it more on highways than on city streets. The rate of accidents per kilometer is obviously much higher in the city where you have more complex situations and slower speeds. So when comparing autopilot failures we need to take into account not only miles driven, but where they are driven.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#156

Post by Traster » Thu, Sep 05, 2019, 9:11 AM UTC

Confusedcius wrote: post #2

The driver was found using his phone, over-relied on the autopilot system, and lied about what he was doing when being questioned. Sadly, we can't 100% trust these automated driving systems yet so folks need to stay attentive behind the wheel. The more accidents like this will cause lawmakers to create laws that can potentially slow down automated driving development.

>Sadly, we can't 100% trust these automated driving systems yet so folks need to stay attentive behind the wheel.

And companies selling the systems need to stop calling them "Autopilot".

>The more accidents like this will cause lawmakers to create laws that can potentially slow down automated driving development.

You'll actually hear this from people working on self-driving at most companies. That they have deliberately been conservative about their roll out and claims because they don't want to destroy the concept of self-driving before they can achieve it. Tesla has done a great job of damaging the reputation of self-driving cars for everyone.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#157

Post by joking » Thu, Sep 05, 2019, 9:13 AM UTC

Isinlor wrote: post #147

FireBeyond wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still misleading, because the miles driven with Autopilot are only a subset of total possible miles, and specifically are a _smaller_ subset of total possible miles than "normal driving". To wit, if Autopilot is unavailable or disengaged because of poor weather/road conditions, a human still has to drive those miles. Autopilot gets the _best_ conditions to show its abilities. Humans get all conditions to show th…

As I said, whatever the reason, there are less accidents with Autopilot, than without. Autopilot is a convenience feature. The question is: Are you willing to accept only 33% less likely hood of an accident with autopilot engaged as compared to when you drive on your own in not Autopilot safe conditions? Do you use Uber knowing that their average driver will be ... well ... average, or just somewhat better than avera…

You have to compare the same miles, it's not fair to compare highway driven miles to city driven miles.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#158

Post by bkor » Thu, Sep 05, 2019, 9:13 AM UTC

de_watcher wrote: post #149

atoav wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, I am pretty sure in Germany they do just that: they drive with you to the next exit. They have a huge display that tells you to follow. At least according to my anecdotal evidence.

In EU you've usually got an entire always empty "emergency stop" lane on the right side.

The shoulder is still not to be used for a police stop. You should only stop there if there's no alternative. A police wanting to stop you is not an emergency; the nearest exit is close enough. Same for a lot of other situations.

Further, in Netherlands an ambulance is not allowed to use the shoulder at high speed. Meaning, they'll prefer driving on the normal lanes (even if a bit crowded) over the shoulder.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#159

Post by bkor » Thu, Sep 05, 2019, 9:17 AM UTC

tom_ wrote: post #145

smogcutter wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This... sounds like it’s on you. If this is in the US, the “flier” is going the normal speed of the road, and you’re driving dangerously slowly. It’s hard to tell that something directly in front of you is approaching. It’s just not something our brains are good at, compared to detecting lateral movement. Especially when it’s so unexpected. One of the first things they tell you in motorcycle safety class is that “con…

There is no such thing as dangerously slowly - the fault lies with people that aren’t leaving enough room to take evasive action given their speed.

You'll be fined in The Netherlands for going too slow. They're not waiting for dangerously slow, way slower than any other traffic is enough.

Example (Dutch, use Google Translate): https://www.rijnmond.nl/nieuws/124541/Flinke-boete-voor-te-l...

A truck got a fine of 1500 EUR. The example was dangerously slow (eventually 40km/h), not just slow.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#160

Post by Shivetya » Thu, Sep 05, 2019, 9:30 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #11

Figure 7 depicts the movement of the Tesla and the two lead vehicles in the last 15 seconds before the crash. In the left panel—covering 15 to 8 seconds before impact—the Tesla is accelerating from 9 to 18 mph while following a lead vehicle (red car) at 30 to 46 feet.In the middle panel—covering 7 to 4 seconds before impact—the Tesla is traveling at a constant 21 mph while following a lead vehicle (green car) at a di…

Telsa 3 Owner here...

There is supposition among some owners that another wreck involving a Tesla, where it went under semi trailer that was crossing the road, was because it failed to recognize it as another vehicle but instead thought it saw a bridge. Which is fun because at times the car certainly did not like some bridges and would brake for them. There was also a recent article about how changing to color of pavement surfaces can cause the summon feature to pause until it sorts out what it is up against.

I have zero issues using auto pilot but I never fully trust it. If anything on long trips I use it to keep an eye on me. I can zone out, I figure many do on long monotonous drives, but it does not. So it is my back seat driver

What it all boils down to is, it is damn hard and there needs to be more regulation in this space and especially for any system which won't require a human behind the wheel.

On another Tesla issue, they should be damn ashamed their blue tooth support for smart phones does not include control over music to the extent that you can manipulate play lists, artist selection, and such, from the car but instead have to use the phone which is illegal in many states.