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Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

latimes.com

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Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#51
post #11

Figure 7 depicts the movement of the Tesla and the two lead vehicles in the last 15 seconds before the crash. In the left panel—covering 15 to 8 seconds before impact—the Tesla is accelerating from 9 to 18 mph while following a lead vehicle (red car) at 30 to 46 feet.In the middle panel—covering 7 to 4 seconds before impact—the Tesla is traveling at a constant 21 mph while following a lead vehicle (green car) at a di…

It only highlights how incredibly dumb these autopilots are. They’re incredibly diligent but completely fail at the necessary skill of understanding . What is the point of any of this if the car with all of its sensors knowingly plows into a stationary red 30-ton obstacle. It’s something that a 4 year old human would understand instantly as an object to be avoided at all cost. I really think folks don’t realize how c…

...Also, that urban environments are the _last_ places these should be deployed. There is just too much everyday weirdness.

Hell, I get confused sometimes in driving SF - flakey drivers, aggressively solipsistic homeless folks crossing (or just standing around in) the street randomly, bicycles, shopping carts, dogs, kids...

I want to see the robot death boxes competently handle less fraught environments before allowing them around humans.

And industry suggestions that the humans not in robot death boxes cede the streets to those who are? Ah, no. Cars own practically everywhere else - you can go play with your toy on the freeway or drive the damn car yourself around other humans.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#52

Fire truck driver here: People crash into parked fire trucks and ambulances and cop cars all the damn time . That's why we park the Big Red Truck at an angle behind the accident -- so that when the 2-ton car crashes into the 30-ton truck, the car will bounce off and the people behind the truck (us) won't be injured. I don't disagree that Tesla's software is partly to blame here, but the null experiment also has a lou…

This one time I go stopped at a fruit fly control point on the border between South Australia and Victoria, near Bordertown. The person staffing the control point indicated with hand signals for me to stop on the highway in the lane I was in. So I slowed down to walking speed and pulled off the highway into the car park next to the office. The agent then lectured me about not following instructions and that she could…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#53
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best way to stay attentive behind the wheel is to actually be the one driving. There's virtually no way of being both attentive and passive for long periods of time. If a driver can't check their email or whatever on their phone while autopilot is on, then autopilot is not safe to put in cars. And while I'm okay with not-exactly-safe for most things people willingly consume or use, driving is not an area where it…

> There's virtually no way of being both attentive and passive for long periods of time. How do aircraft pilots manage it?

In cruise, it's extremely rare to be within 3 miles of another aircraft laterally and 1000' vertically.

Takeoff, initial climb, descent, and approach to landing are high workload times, easily holding the attention of the crew.

Cruise is much more relaxed and much less need for hair-trigger responses. My aircraft has audio and visual cues if an aircraft breeches a 2nm (or thereabouts) and is within 1000' vertically. Other than that, it's systems monitoring, weather monitoring, keeping up on the nav progress vs fuel remaining, and making sure the automation isn't trying to kill you, either subtly or acutely.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#54

The driver was found using his phone, over-relied on the autopilot system, and lied about what he was doing when being questioned. Sadly, we can't 100% trust these automated driving systems yet so folks need to stay attentive behind the wheel. The more accidents like this will cause lawmakers to create laws that can potentially slow down automated driving development.

If we want to be fair to consumers and bystanders, Tesla needs their product to safely stop the reckless behavior (not simply warn the user). If it can't do that, it needs to disable AutoPilot. AutoPilot was marketed in a way which led to Tesla selling their product to people with unwittingly dangerous uses in mind. It is unacceptable for Tesla to enable this reckless driving. Tesla has the ability to affect the scal…

Why can't I say literally the exact same thing about all cars?

Let's hold people responsible for their actions, not objects. It's one thing to say "autopilot makes it hard to focus", it's another thing to say "autopilot made me pick up the phone while driving, and lie about it".

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#55
post #11

Figure 7 depicts the movement of the Tesla and the two lead vehicles in the last 15 seconds before the crash. In the left panel—covering 15 to 8 seconds before impact—the Tesla is accelerating from 9 to 18 mph while following a lead vehicle (red car) at 30 to 46 feet.In the middle panel—covering 7 to 4 seconds before impact—the Tesla is traveling at a constant 21 mph while following a lead vehicle (green car) at a di…

It only highlights how incredibly dumb these autopilots are. They’re incredibly diligent but completely fail at the necessary skill of understanding . What is the point of any of this if the car with all of its sensors knowingly plows into a stationary red 30-ton obstacle. It’s something that a 4 year old human would understand instantly as an object to be avoided at all cost. I really think folks don’t realize how c…

Except humans crash into stationary vehicles in lane all the damn time. Most highway pile ups are a simple crash lots of folks drive into the back of. Why's it hard?

A vehicle coming from a side road has a lot of movement within your field of vision. When driving on a highway we're well used to the fact and expectation that stuff isn't stopped. When the vehicle ahead emergency brakes or stops you have the growth of size of the target to gauge by. That's not much movement, until the last moment when it's far too late to evade. Some stationary debris is much easier - it's not meant to be there at all - you transition to evasion right from the get go.

For a human in a car, the dangerous highway case is the stationary vehicle in the fast lane, maybe one or two vehicles ahead. When flying it's the other aircraft that's on a collision course. Neither will move within your field of vision. Neither is easy to detect as problem, until it's very late.

FWIW 4 year old humans often run into things. :)

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#56
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best way to stay attentive behind the wheel is to actually be the one driving. There's virtually no way of being both attentive and passive for long periods of time. If a driver can't check their email or whatever on their phone while autopilot is on, then autopilot is not safe to put in cars. And while I'm okay with not-exactly-safe for most things people willingly consume or use, driving is not an area where it…

> There's virtually no way of being both attentive and passive for long periods of time. How do aircraft pilots manage it?

In a/c you have plenty of things to do to keep you occupied.

The autopilot disengages itself with a loud warning (and leaves aircraft in a reasonable attitude and trimmed).

Pilots are indoctrinated into disabling automation at the very first sign of something going wrong with it.

Autopilot operation is significantly simpler and understandable by the user (i.e. you may have "roll mode" keeping wings level, "heading mode" and "nav mode" which keeps wings level and either keeps nose pointing to commanded heading or following the pre-programmed track, "altitude hold" or "vertical speed (with or without altitude intercept)" for vertical control, etc, etc.

Aviation autopilots do simple commanded things. They don't make decisions on their own. They are much closer to cruise control than to Tesla's "autopilot". And, yes, a typical aviation autopilot will happily fly you into a mountain if you're not paying attention (the official term for that is CFIT, controlled flight into terrain).

The aviation industry is trying to improve safety by adding more warning systems and situational awareness aids (such as TAWS and ADS-B). Systems which "protect" the a/c by making and automatically executing decisions for a pilot are widely regarded with suspicion (and for a good reason, too: MCAS issue with 737 MAX is just one example of a "safety" system killing people).

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#57
post #43
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autopilot. By design it encourages drivers to stop paying any attention - the fact that it has a “signal the driver” to try and maintain driver focus indicates that the core design produces this behavior. If the core design produces the same behavior, in a large enough portion of the user base to require such a feature, that’s a fairly good indication that the core design is causing a problem.

You are answering the opposite of the question. all cars allow you to stop paying attention. I think the idea behind autopilot is that it reduces your workload (like cruise control, or automatic wipers, or automatic headlights or any other labor-saving device)

Tools like autopilot encourage lack of attention.

The problem isn't "you don't have pay attention to X" it is "you don't have to pay attention to anything during normal operation". It is human nature, if not outright physiology that it is incredibly difficult to keep someone engaged, and paying attention to a task that they are not actually doing.

The problem with halfway solutions like autopilot isn't that they control the car some of the time, it's that they can, essentially without warning Stop controlling it.

Self driving cars will happen. But the current model is essentially "do enough of the driving to maximize the likelihood that the human 'driver' is not going to pay attention, but don't do enough to make their lack of attention safe".

My statement isn't "cars allow you not to pay attention", it is "systems like autopilot actively encourage a lack of attention", that's backed up by the need for alert systems when they have obvious signs that the driver isn't paying attention, like "no longer holding the wheel". If the system didn't in general usage result in lack of attention then such a system would not be necessary.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#58

Even with Autopilot, everyone I know who owns one: Its their little baby... they don't even dare risk it, at all. These people doing stuff like this are either really stupid, or really rich... or both. Because I have never seen anyone I know dare drive recklessly with autopilot.

I was looking to get a leaf or Cadillac in a few years when their autopilot is on used vehicles.

Isn't the point that its... Autopilot?

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is certainly okay when the rates at which these things happen is lower than the rates at which non-self driving cars have accidents. A 0% accident rate is unrealistic and unfair.

Statistics makes for a tough sell to the survivors. “Yes, this autonomous vehicle killed your son who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but someone else’s son would have died in an unrelated accident somewhere else were it not for autonomy.”

You absolutely can't challenge someone's personal experience with statistics, but something about this line of argument still troubles me.

I've lost a handful of close friends to car accidents. If survivorship grants standing, then I'm for doing almost anything to reduce the tens of thousands of US road deaths each year.

Survivors have been angry at safety tech before, but we generally ignore them. I've known people who insisted they would rather be thrown from an accident; they wouldn't wear a belt. One friend came to that conclusion because his uncle died trapped in a burning vehicle. I respect the incredibly complex and deep emotional reasons that he came to his conclusion, but he was still wrong, and he shouldn't set seatbelt policy.

ON THE OTHER HAND...

We sometimes throw around this baseline of the natural accident rate of drivers, and that's slightly lying with statistics. Accidents are not evenly distributed across all drivers.

You have a lot of impaired drivers in that pack. You have a bunch of insolvent, uninsurable drivers who cause a disproportionate share of accidents.

If the worst 10% have most of the accidents, then even a car that makes us safer than the mean driver could still make 90% of us less safe. We really want a car that makes us safer than our percentile of drivers.

Maybe driverless cars are already better than the mean. Are they better than the 90th %ile? I don't know that anyone has enough data to say.

The most cautious drivers really will have an at-fault accident rate statistically indistinguishable from zero. We should absolutely be shooting for that.

Re: Tesla’s Autopilot found partly to blame for 2018 crash on the 405

#60
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best way to stay attentive behind the wheel is to actually be the one driving. There's virtually no way of being both attentive and passive for long periods of time. If a driver can't check their email or whatever on their phone while autopilot is on, then autopilot is not safe to put in cars. And while I'm okay with not-exactly-safe for most things people willingly consume or use, driving is not an area where it…

> There's virtually no way of being both attentive and passive for long periods of time. How do aircraft pilots manage it?

I've flown "right seat" (not pilot) a fair number of times. Air traffic control interacts with the pilot quite often and at fairly unpredictable times. This requires the pilot to be alert and respond promptly to a request or direction from air traffic control. If the pilot doesn't respond promptly, air traffic control repeats the request with more urgency and goes into the "lost communications" procedure if there is no response.

tl;dr: aircraft pilots generally must be attentive. Tesla drivers on "auto pilot" - not so much.

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