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Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

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Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American Revolution produced a slave state. There might have been voting among landed gentry but it was not anything I'd call democracy in 2019

>anything I'd call democracy in 2019 Democracy was created in Ancient Greece, so it may or may not surprise you to learn Democracy itself isn't anything you'd call democracy in 2019 either, as they were a "slave state" also and not everyone actually had the right to vote (in fact women couldn't vote, own/inherit land)...so maybe post Revolutionary America was a lot closer to Democracy than you think...but either way…

I am using "democracy" as a synonym for "liberal democracy."

If you tell me about a country that:

- Has a beautiful founding document that ensures what we'd recognize as basic rights of all citizens

- Has a well-designed federal system that empowers individuals and lower-level governments at the expense of the federal,

- Has hundreds of thousands of enslaved people who form the foundation of their economy and are indeed bred into captivity,

I would never, ever call that a democracy. The first two don't matter when the third is true, to me. If you would, that's fine; you wouldn't be objectively wrong.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#332
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When only white land owning men could vote?

The status quo. You’re condemning men for maintaining the status quo in order to agree on something going forward on a handful of issues when every other word was essentially revolutionary. This is prior to the Article I branch of government, Congress, abdicating much of its power and creating this myth of coequal branches of government, and when House districts were a lot smaller, and you and your neighbors has to d…

[deleted]

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revolutions don't produce democracies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution

First sentence: "The Velvet Revolution or Gentle Revolution was a non-violent transition of power in what was then Czechoslovakia, occurring from 17 November to 29 December 1989.

When I say that "Revolutions don't produce democracies", I'm talking about violent revolutions. A "non violent revolution" is a contradiction on terms to me.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#334
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was probably more so then now rather than less.

When only white land owning men could vote?

Not just any white man but a land owner. In fairness it included straight and gay so it was more progressive.

My point was it is closer to the ideals.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#335
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This NPR podcast/article argues different. "...found that major nonviolent campaigns are successful 53% of the time, while violent campaigns are successful only 26% of the time." The Protest Tipping Point (podcast): https://www.npr.org/2019/06/25/736007317/the-protest-tipping... The Magic Number Behind Protests : https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/06/25/735536434/the-...

Was the Civil Rights movement in the United States violent or non-violent? MLK may have been the face of it, but the man that really brought the government to the negotiating table was Malcolm X... Because of the implicit threat that if non-violent resistance won't work, here's a guy that is perfectly happy to have his supporters sit outside congress, armed with assault rifles, exercising their second amendment right…

> Non-violent protest often wins because the powers that be want to avoid antagonising the violent arm of the movement.

Not really a non-violent protest wins because majority move away from a violent group to a non-violent group.

So it makes a violent person who already has fear, more scared of being left alone. Non-violent protests need to be planned and require strategy in such a way, it helps those non-violent protestors to self-defend with the use of non-violent means, i.e. using deterrents which create fear in aggressors mind on use of violence.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#336
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, they did not. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/11/democr... Even Warren agrees DNC was rigged against Sanders. https://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/04/politics/bernie-sanders-2... https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-consent/?destination=%2f...

My eyes are rolling so hard right now. Primaries/caucuses are managed at the state level, and are not controlled directly or indirectly by the DNC. "Bias" means nothing without action, and the claims of "cheating" are completely unfounded (and insulting to the countless thousands of party volunteers who run caucuses and serve as election judges). Bernie lost by three million votes. Not because of cheating, but becaus…

>Primaries/caucuses are managed at the state level, and are not controlled directly or indirectly by the DNC.

Why would that be?

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#337
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you know. You expect the violent person to be ashamed of themselves. That's a very bold assumption. A psychopath or sociopath won't feel a thing when they order their army to mow down peaceful protestors. It's a beautiful idea really. But when you are given no option other than to fight, do you think it's wrong for them to do so? Jewish, Armenians, Chinese under Japanese occupation? Might have not mattered, mig…

It's not just a claim many studies do prove non violent struggle are more successful in bringing change than violent once. [1] [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2014/07/24/the-proven...

I'm not disagreeing that in this case non-violent approach isn't the best. But depending on the setting, the parameters if you will, that approach might be inefficient. Another example would be the people living under the Stalin's rule in Soviet Union. Even if you resisted peacefully, I'm sure you would have been taken to the gulag either way.

The circumstance where non-violent behavior works is very specific and is best when there's:

A) much stronger opponent (British Empire, Chinese government)

B) level of civilization where both parties do not want to engage in violence (the majority of modern civilizations)

C) good chance for massive unrest if violence were to happen (no ruler wants to deal with domestic terrorism and internal squabbles, unless of course your regime is breaking up already and that's the only way to keep control)

The more primal the opponent, the worse are your chances. Aztecs would have welcomed non-violent behavior with open hands, they would have cheerfully enslaved people who didn't put up a fight. The reason why they stopped was basically the destruction of their civilization by the Spaniards. But maybe I'm mixing here war with protesting, which is a more of problem after you have lost and are under the oppressive regime. Then your options are limited: it's either violent insurgency or non-violent protesting. In modern world luckily we have electronic mass-media that helps immensely with the non-violence.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same story everywhere - nothing much changed after the Arab spring protests, for example. Except in Tunisia, which is the one success story from that time period. It's now a functioning democracy. Of course the real test is how it does over the long term, but at least so far it's an example of real change in the region.

Revolutions don't produce democracies.

They do however produce Constutional Republics.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#339
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look into the American Revolution.

That's actually a perfect example of a revolution resulting in a system that looks a lot like the previous system. Mostly self-governing colonies with Parliament exercising some limited control over them turn into mostly self-governing states with a Federal government exercising some limited control over them. Pretty much the only things that changed short-term were foreign policy and what kinds of imported goods wer…

The American Revolution was won by leveraging Iroquois-style confederacy [1] as effective propaganda [2], and by employing guerilla warfare tactics learned fighting the Algonquin. This enabled securing enough victory (i.e. Saratoga) to get the French involved as the focus shifted to the Southern theater.

It was the first successful war of independence [3], lead to establishing the modern elected head of state, outlawed explicit nobility, and inspired fanatical devotion to an earthly cause.

For the previous hundred years, Jacobite rebellions in Europe had been crushed, seemingly due mainly to tactical failure (e.g. Culloden, the last pitched battle in Britain).

But then, a few years after the American Revolution, the French: guerilla warfare, beheaded head of state, banished nobility, fanatical devotion to an earthly cause.

(Interestingly, the French Revolution occurred right around the time they hit 50% literacy [4], increasing the viability of written propaganda.)

Then Haiti launched the second successful independence war in 1791, kicking off centuries of decolonization.

The American Revolution was a break from history.

We haven't cycled back to pitched battles, if anything guerilla warfare is still under active development and experiencing significant growth. Propaganda, as an instrument of war, is only becoming more important. And colonial aggressors continue to lose when on someone else's home field.

1. https://archive.org/details/indiantreatiespr00vand/page/78

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Join,_or_Die

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_of_independence

4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy#/media/File:Illiterac...

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>anything I'd call democracy in 2019 Democracy was created in Ancient Greece, so it may or may not surprise you to learn Democracy itself isn't anything you'd call democracy in 2019 either, as they were a "slave state" also and not everyone actually had the right to vote (in fact women couldn't vote, own/inherit land)...so maybe post Revolutionary America was a lot closer to Democracy than you think...but either way…

I am using "democracy" as a synonym for "liberal democracy." If you tell me about a country that: - Has a beautiful founding document that ensures what we'd recognize as basic rights of all citizens - Has a well-designed federal system that empowers individuals and lower-level governments at the expense of the federal, - Has hundreds of thousands of enslaved people who form the foundation of their economy and are ind…

>If you would, that's fine; you wouldn't be objectively wrong.

I call the US a Constitutional Republic, where the representatives are elected through various implementations of the democratic process.

Otherwise, I'm just highlighting the fact that the "inventors" of democracy had slaves just the same as the US (among other limitations on who had voting rights) at the time of the Revolutionary War/Independence.

In some respects slavery was an inherited evil of the new US Constitutional Republic, an evil which the Constitutional Republic was unable to abolish through law/voting/representatives (as evidenced by half of the country attempting to secede rather than honor the law) and instead resulted in a war to maintain the Union and enforcement of the law through use of arms. Unfortunately, democracy/liberal democracy/Constitutional Republic whatever we call it, it was not effective an abolishing slavery with the stroke of a pen and instead threatened to breakup the very form of government which was only maintained through the most deadly war the Country has ever fought (in fact deadlier than every other US war combined).

It begins to become a slippery slope when laws at the end of a gun, whether or not those laws are morally correct.

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