Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill • Hacker News Board

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#261

Post by xster » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 5:56 PM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #175

poukofiru wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds likely. When Britain colonized Hong Kong, it took them more than 70+ years to pacify the people. Especially after the ‘67 protests, that resulted in 51 deaths. China is hoping the next generation will be more friendly. Like how the people of Macau are.

If it wants the people to be friendly, it should probably start pumping a lot more money into jobs programs, addressing income inequality, and building a helluva lot of housing. Happy people don't protest as frequently. People who feel they have dim future prospects do. (Simply from a realpolitik perspective)

That's what Tung Chee-Hwa tried to do as the first beijing friendly chief executive. Beijing can't decide what the legco votes for (since the functional constituency is by definition allocated to the local oligarchy who prefer to keep the status quo of focusing on wealth management, private banking than building productive, middle-class-geared economies).

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#262

Post by bouncycastle » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 5:57 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #240

bouncycastle wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tiananmen Square still continues to be a major thorn for the CCP today, both internally and diplomatically, it's obvious that ramafications are continuing, and why Beijing just can't march in to Hong Kong. Prague Spring lead to reforms and set the inspiration for the next generation that ended in victory (source https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr... ) . Rabaa, the situation is still ongoing,…

What practical consequences did Tiananmen Square have? You say it’s why they can’t just march into Hong Kong, but I don’t believe that. They can’t just march into Hong Kong because of the international condemnation that would ensue, and because it would wreck an economically valuable city. Both of those would remain true if Tiananmen Square had never happened. You say it’s a “major thorn” for them today; how? Domesti…

> What practical consequences did Tiananmen Square have?

CCP is still grappling with it.

Quote "As foundational as the crackdown at Tiananmen may have been to the CCP’s current strength, it remains largely invisible to the people. Despite claiming the moral high ground against what it calls a “counter-revolutionary” rebellion, the Party is still sensitive to the fact that its slaughter of students and laborers put a stain on its legitimacy."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/5600363/china-tiananme...

Sorry, but you can't just burry a massacre, especially if it's been well documented.

> Does that mean that all protests are successful by definition when you look at a long enough timeline?

They may also look like separate events on the timeline, but still part of the same overall movement. Change doesn't happen overnight.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#263

Post by throwaway_law » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 5:58 PM UTC

mattdeboard wrote: post #227

lacker wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One counterexample is the American Revolution.

The American Revolution produced a slave state. There might have been voting among landed gentry but it was not anything I'd call democracy in 2019

>anything I'd call democracy in 2019

Democracy was created in Ancient Greece, so it may or may not surprise you to learn Democracy itself isn't anything you'd call democracy in 2019 either, as they were a "slave state" also and not everyone actually had the right to vote (in fact women couldn't vote, own/inherit land)...so maybe post Revolutionary America was a lot closer to Democracy than you think...but either way its a Republican form of Government (at least according to the Constitution) not a democracy.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#264

Post by mytailorisrich » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 5:59 PM UTC

spacehunt wrote: post #257

mytailorisrich wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your occupation does not prevent you from taking part in a riot. That being said, again let's also see who ends being convicted.

Of course these were not merely their occupation, they were on active duty when they were arrested. With prior cases as precedent, and with how loosely the law is written, the chances of them not being convicted after being charged is slim.

I'm wondering how a social worker could be on "active duty", let alone in a violent protest. I'm also wondering how a member of the emergency services on duty could be arrested.

Without details your claims do not make much sense, including your claims about precedents and likelihood of conviction.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#265

Post by StreamBright » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 6:00 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #210

StreamBright wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are too hard on US elections. People wanted Bernie and got HRC.

More people wanted HRC, though. That's how elections work. It doesn't mean the loser is unpopular or broadly disliked. It means there's another candidate voters like better (or dislike less).

Nope, they did not.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/11/democr...

Even Warren agrees DNC was rigged against Sanders.

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/04/politics/bernie-sanders-2...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-consent/?destination=%2f...

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#266

Post by mobilefriendly » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

billfruit wrote: post #217

lacker wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One counterexample is the American Revolution.

I doubt if the early United States was very much democratic in the modern sense.

It was radically democratic for its time.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#267

Post by mobilefriendly » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

mattdeboard wrote: post #227

lacker wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One counterexample is the American Revolution.

The American Revolution produced a slave state. There might have been voting among landed gentry but it was not anything I'd call democracy in 2019

The American Revolution ended slavery in 5 states. North American slavery was a British institution.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#268

Post by Kalium » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 6:09 PM UTC

lacker wrote: post #194

BurningFrog wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revolutions don't produce democracies.

One counterexample is the American Revolution.

The American Revolution shouldn't be considered as a revolution. It was a bunch of organized polities that broke their political ties, but largely preserved their political, economic, and social structures and organized leadership. It was successful in no small part because it was a rebellion rather than a revolution.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#269

Post by Kalium » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 6:09 PM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #255

BurningFrog wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revolutions don't produce democracies.

Then what does produce democracies? There are a bunch of those about at the moment and, while some of them are faux democracies installed by freedom-loving-america there are several legitimate democracies - were they all voluntary transitions initiated by the former monarchs?

Democracies come about more often from gradualist reforms than from revolutions. Revolutions have a distinct tendency - though obviously this is not a hard rule - to produce strongman governments whose primary claim to legitimacy is that they ended the chaos of the revolution.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#270

Post by Kalium » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 6:10 PM UTC

lightedman wrote: post #195

BurningFrog wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revolutions don't produce democracies.

American Revolution. French Revolution. The entirety of the European Revolutions in the 1850s. The Carnation Revolution. In more modern times, revolutions have pretty much resulted in more democracies than at any other time period.

It is difficult to portray the French Revolution as a successful democratic revolution with a straight face. The result was chaos, terror, death, and then Napoleon.

Napoleon was, to put it somewhat mildly, not much of a democrat.