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Why Index Funds Are Like Subprime CDOs

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Re: Why Index Funds Are Like Subprime CDOs

#51

Can someone who understands investing well explain what he’s saying in terms that someone who isn’t knowledgeable about this could understand? I kind of think he’s saying that everyone is just shoveling their money into index funds without thinking about it and this leads to incorrectly valued stock that will correct in the form of a crash at some point. Is that sort of the gist of it?

Most folks here are focusing on Burry's comments regarding price-discovery. However there is another huge point: Liquidity risk. To understand his point, you have to know the gory details of how an ETF operates.

First: When you buy a ETF share for the S&P 500 (iShares, Vanguard etc), the share is not backed by all 500 S&P components. Virtually all the large-number component ETFs are using a sampling of shares to match the underlying index. (They would be buried by transaction fees otherwise.) The subsampling of the index is reasonably well-understood math, but relies on an assumption: That the buying and selling each component share will not be greatly affected by the ETF purchase or sale.

[Edit: I may be out of date - Some ETFs are full samples. Nevertheless, the bigger point that the ETF purchase/sale does not much affect the price stands.]

Second: The ETF uses a very clear process to keep the price of the ETF in equilibrium with the index it represents. Large players are allowed to go to the ETF adminstrator (say iShares) and turn in a bunch of the ETF shares, and iShares will transfer back the underlying components. So if the ETF price ever gets too cheap relative to the index, the big players will redeem the ETF share, and then sell the underlying shares they received, which results in a quick, nearly guaranteed profit.

Conversely, if the ETF price goes above the index, a large player will bring a basket of the underlying component shares to iShares, and iShares will give them corresponding ETF shares. So they buy the components cheap, sell the expensive ETF, again making a quick profit.

Now to what Burry is saying: Several components of the big indices are thinly traded compared to the amount of money in the index funds. In a large index drop, there will be disproportionate downward moves in those thinly traded shares: As large players will be redeeming the ETFs for underlying shares and then sell, these thinly traded stocks will drop further than you'd predict from the index. This will cause the index to drop further, which will cause more ETF shares to be redeemed, perpetuating the cycle.

I think his point should be better known than it currently is: The current wisdom that "you can't lose money in the stock market long-term" is reminiscent of "you can't lose money buying a house."

Re: Why Index Funds Are Like Subprime CDOs

#52

Not an economist, but it's obvious to anyone used to thinking in terms of systems that index funds can't work after a certain amount of the money poured into the system is managed by index funds. What's the limit - 30% 40%, 50%, 60%? What's the current level in terms of managed capital? (Edit: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/19/passive-investing-now-contro... says 45% for US stock-based funds, half a year ago, so maybe…

It should be self-regulating, though. The higher the portion of the market that is passively investing, the easier it should be to beat their returns by actively investing so the more incentive there will be to actively invest.

Once indexing gets to be a certain size, you run into the "markets irrational longer than you can stay solvent" issue at a much higher level. Active management "correction" doesn't really work if active managers are a much smaller portion of the market or no longer around at all.

Re: Why Index Funds Are Like Subprime CDOs

#53

Not an economist, but it's obvious to anyone used to thinking in terms of systems that index funds can't work after a certain amount of the money poured into the system is managed by index funds. What's the limit - 30% 40%, 50%, 60%? What's the current level in terms of managed capital? (Edit: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/19/passive-investing-now-contro... says 45% for US stock-based funds, half a year ago, so maybe…

>but it's obvious to anyone used to thinking in terms of systems that index funds can't work after a certain amount of the money poured into the system is managed by index funds.

If you have one trillion dollars invested, and the entire exchange volume is based on me and my friend trading a single share back and forth, everything will still work. It doesn't matter how much you own, because my friend and I are going to want a fair price for that one share in any case. There's no practical limit to how passive things can get before a problem kicks up, as long as a few hedge funds stay in.

Re: Why Index Funds Are Like Subprime CDOs

#54

The discussion of this on the Bogleheads forums, a community dedicated to low-cost investing primarily via indexing, provides an interesting counter-point to Burry's opinions: https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=289284

This is a good point:

Post by ltlurker » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:24 pm

I'm an index investor, like most Bogleheads, and I subscribe to Bloomberg digital so I can read articles such as this and did see this one at lunch (EDT). I'm open to various perspectives especially if there appears to be a rationale behind them. And of course this individual was behind the "big short" so that intrigued me.

If I recall correctly, I believe his position is that Index funds tend to favor the largest companies - naturally - as they're mostly market cap weighted. The S&P 500 as we've noted is widely invested in, but the Total Stock Market also has an average weighting that makes it a Large Cap Fund - by Vanguard's standards. Relatively few people directly invest in the Russell 2000 Index or even have those options in their employers' retirement plans. (I have the opportunity to invest in the Completion Index in my retirement plan so that's partway there).

I think Burry sees this as an opportunity to look at small cap value, which has been out of favor and not had a good run for some time. I think he must be thinking that a reversion is going to start at some point. None of us can know when, of course. And of course others are looking at the ratio of stock valuations to GDP (apparently one of Warren Buffet's key measures) and believe that there's significance to that, as well.

Re: Why Index Funds Are Like Subprime CDOs

#55
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All types of investment in every country is subject to financial repression. You could own gold, but wait ! any gain is taxed as income ( not capital gain ). Carrying it around has stiff penalties. "You invest in how we say you invest" - Uncle Sam.

Taxes aren't repression.

Unequal taxes seems a valid form of repression.

Start with something simple, say taxing people of one race 15% more than another race. That would seem a valid form of repression.

Okay, so that rarely happens and is almost always combined with far greater forms of repression. But there are less extreme examples. What about taxing someone more when they have kids, or more when they don't?

Sin taxes also seems a way to repress certain behaviors in society by increasing their cost. Why can't the logic apply in other areas of life where tax rates are unequal?

Re: Why Index Funds Are Like Subprime CDOs

#56
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be self-regulating, though. The higher the portion of the market that is passively investing, the easier it should be to beat their returns by actively investing so the more incentive there will be to actively invest.

Once indexing gets to be a certain size, you run into the "markets irrational longer than you can stay solvent" issue at a much higher level. Active management "correction" doesn't really work if active managers are a much smaller portion of the market or no longer around at all.

Holding doesn't change the price: buying moves it up and selling moves it down. An index fund holding 50% of all shares on the market but not trading them would have no influence at all on prices.

Re: Why Index Funds Are Like Subprime CDOs

#58
Not knowledgeable on these matters, so my money is in index funds. Obviously a lot of other people are in the same category as myself. The article seems to be saying we'd all be better financial citizens if we put our money into actively managed funds, or did our own investing. The latter is out of reach for most people, and with respect to the former it's somewhat puzzling that managed funds can't consistently outperform index funds (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/15/active-fund-managers-trail-t...), and so the managers of those funds in a strict sense don't earn their fees. So what is the average person with a couple bucks to invest supposed to take from this? The market is in peril because not enough money is flowing to people who do a poor job of managing it?

Re: Why Index Funds Are Like Subprime CDOs

#59

He says he's (reluctantly) doing active stock picking. He's a professional investor; I'm just some software engineer with a nest egg, which is 100% in index funds today. What should I be doing, as a schmoe who wants to save money?

The thing is even if Burry is right (and that's a big if), it doesn't mean that you as an individual investor with a long time-horizon should do anything different.

Burry's argument is that many of the underlying stocks inside the index have a lot less liquidity than the index funds and securities themselves. E.g. if a lot of capital quickly exits the index funds, then some of the single-name stocks may be overwhelmed by the liquidity. That would result in their prices becoming severely dislocated relative to their true value.

But if you're just buying-and-holding that doesn't matter. If the stocks in your portfolio become temporarily dislocated, who cares? Dislocations by definition correct themselves over time. If some stock falls 50% because of panic selling, without anything having to do with the underlying company, it will eventually return to the correct price. And much sooner than the decades long timeline that you're saving for.

That doesn't mean that Burry's thesis is irrelevant to everyone. In particular if you're an institution that offers liquidity to your clients it may be very relevant. Or if you're a bank, hedge fund, or insurance company that's subject to mark-to-market capital ratios or margin calls.

If stocks become very dislocated, your investors may panic and redeem their money. Or your regulator may say you have insufficient capital and have to liquidate. That's very bad, because you'll be forced to sell at fire-sale prices. However, that's not relevant to individual investors, because nobody can force you to sell out just because your portfolio goes down.

Re: Why Index Funds Are Like Subprime CDOs

#60
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once indexing gets to be a certain size, you run into the "markets irrational longer than you can stay solvent" issue at a much higher level. Active management "correction" doesn't really work if active managers are a much smaller portion of the market or no longer around at all.

Holding doesn't change the price: buying moves it up and selling moves it down. An index fund holding 50% of all shares on the market but not trading them would have no influence at all on prices.

Did you mean to reply to my post? I don't see the relevance.
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