Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill • Hacker News Board

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#241

Post by wyuenho » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 5:07 PM UTC

andrekandre wrote: post #144

i_am_proteus wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this sarcasm? While no authoritarian government can exist with no consent of the government, the PRC has no legal vehicle for citizens to disagree with the state.

that’s basically true, but it does seem china does have some nominal democracy at local levels, which then in turn elect upper levels and so on [1] so, while indirect, there does seem some nominal way to disagree as you say [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China

One thing you do have to realize is, the Chinese are very good at keeping up the appearances.

While there are local elections, there's usually no right to stand for elections. These so-called elections, generally has only 1 candidate, or a few that are all communist members, with pretty much the same views. "Elections" where people can't stand to be elected freely are not elections, they are just some elaborate ceremony to rubber-stamp government official appointments.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#242

Post by akfanta » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 5:09 PM UTC

tony wrote: post #55

Random: Did you know Guangzhou (Canton) was briefly capital of China back in the day? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_(1912%E2%80%... There's an important political figure in the history of modern China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen He studied medicine in HK. He lived in Hawaii for a time [1]. He had a political philosophy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Principles_of_the_People To m…

> He was Cantonese

What does that even mean? He's a dialect? Sun Yat-sen is widely regarded as the founding father of modern China(as apposed to Qing dynasty). This is beyond political differences. That's why he's highly regarded on both sides. And believe or not, Kuomintang started out as a left wing party as well. They received tons of aids from Soviet Union when they were initially founded.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#243

Post by sneak » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 5:09 PM UTC

mattdeboard wrote: post #227

lacker wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One counterexample is the American Revolution.

The American Revolution produced a slave state. There might have been voting among landed gentry but it was not anything I'd call democracy in 2019

Is “landed gentry” redundant?

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#244

Post by PavlovsCat » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 5:12 PM UTC

incognition wrote: post #225

i_am_proteus wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this sarcasm? While no authoritarian government can exist with no consent of the government, the PRC has no legal vehicle for citizens to disagree with the state.

Well to paraphase, governments are people too.. most middle class folks in China are nominally CCP members themselves.. operationally CCP maps to a corporation in org chart then a democracy of course..

Same difference apparently:

https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/file/472/download?token=Bd...

> Every single day in China, depending on which statistic from the Chinese government is used, an average of 16 to 76 people are placed into the new liuzhi detention system and, by definition, disappeared.

[..]

> For decades, the Chinese Communist Party’s powerful anti-graft watchdog, the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection (CCDI), used the shuanggui detention system to hold suspects for up to six months without charge. Enforcers were not answerable to any state laws. The use of shuanggui has been a strictly internal affair for the members of the CCP, it is completely separate from the state or judicial system. The meant that the normal protections afforded to those detained within the judicial system and rights, such as access to legal counsel, were not available to shuanggui detainees. Once in these facilities, you have no right to have your family informed of your whereabouts. You simply disappeared.

> At the National People’s Congress in March 2018, China introduced a constitutional amendment to establish the National Supervision Commission (NSC), based on the new National Supervision Law (NSL), effectively replacing shuanggui with liuzhi. In practical terms, the biggest change was the NSC has authority over not just the 90 million or so CCP members but state employees and anyone working for an organization that manages public affairs or is involved in public affairs in any manner, right down to the village level. The style of Investigation and detention, despite the change in name, remain the same.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#245

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 5:12 PM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #173

dirtyid wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China relocated millions of urban youth to country side reeducation camps during the cultural revolution. If push comes to shove, it's well within the capability of the CPC to relocate the problem population in HK. The fact is, Beijing has not used any physical levers yet.

China's cultural revolution occurred at a very different time geopolitically. Currently, China is attempting to establish itself as the new bipolar alternative to the United States. This cascades into a lot of different things, but ultimately collapses down into trust. Just as the Cold War did. Counterparties and potential allies are less likely to ally themselves with you, if they see you're intractable even with yo…

Peaceful reunification is already unlikely.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#246

Post by meowface » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

SkyBelow wrote: post #124

dragonsh wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Utterly false, but persistently preached by those in power A non-violent protestor is a person who does not fear anything, and the person who doesn't fear is the most powerful one. Violence is a result of fear, that's the reason need to use weapons and aids to fight back to increase the chances of survival. A true warrior is a fearless person who respond to violence with non-violence and make violent person ashamed…

>Violence is a result of fea Violence is a means to enforce ones will on another. It is only one of such means. It is the mean by which the entire legal system falls back on. It is the mean by which Americans won their independence. It is the mean by which bad people do evil things. >This is the famous quote of Mao Zedong (毛泽东). "Power flows from the barrel of gun" And it is the truth, especially if we see take this…

I understand and agree with what you're saying, but your points about the American Revolution and the Second Amendment could potentially be interpreted as permitting violence from protestors.

The US Revolution truly began forming after British soldiers started gunning down colonial civilians. For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre

>"John Adams wrote that the "foundation of American independence was laid" on [the date of the massacre], and Samuel Adams and other Patriots used annual commemorations (Massacre Day) to encourage public sentiment toward independence.

The colonists didn't just shoot the evil British tyrants telling them to go away because of their oppressive policies. They probably would have lost the war if that's how it started. That's not how you start a revolution. It started because the British fired the first unfair shots (or at least that was the perception).

Some protestors have been quoted saying they want a protestor, or a police officer, to die and become a martyr for either side so that a true revolution can begin. While the citizens of Hong Kong absolutely deserve democracy and civil rights, wishing death is not the way to do it. If the government does start the violence towards civilians of their own accord, with cruelty and brutality, perhaps reciprocal violence in self-defense may at some point become justifiable, but this is a very fine line and only a hypothetical scenario to be considered in response to grave danger, not something anyone should ever wish for.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

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Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

AFascistWorld wrote: post #233

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. When I lived in China in 2002, meat wasn’t that rare, even in tier 88 cities I travelled to. The cafeterias in Beijing’s universities definitely had no problem finding it. Maybe in the 70s and early 80s?

The rate of urbanization in 2002 is 39.09%, note this includes small towns which are much poorer than cities, that means the majority of the population was still very poor and the trend to work in coastal factories barely began, so could you really see average people's daily dishes as a guest? I'm not saying it's rare to eat pork, what I’m saying is eating pork almost everyday like it's a super normal thing, not just…

I don’t know what you would consider a small town like Leiyang Hunan (small being relative, it has a couple hundred thousand urban and almost a million rural). Of course, Hunan is a bit different from poorer Jiangxi or even Henan. Heck, when I visited the yunnan country side in 2002, I was told many families were so poor they only had one pair of pants (seemed like an exaggeration, but who knows).

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#248

Post by Aperocky » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

justaguyhere wrote: post #111

tobtoh wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that Beijing didn't anticipate the resolve of the protestors, but they would certainly know about and endorse Lam's backdown. China is happy to play the long game - they apply pressure to HK to bring them inline with China, people protest, they back of a little, but not all the way. They wait ... then apply pressure again. The idea is that by 2047 when the 'one country, two systems' arrangement expires,…

each time, HK will lose a few more rights they used to have. Very likely. Sucks for HK people though :( Same story everywhere - nothing much changed after the Arab spring protests, for example. As impressive as they are, how long can Hong Kong people keep up this level of protests? Beijing can keep the pressure forever and play the long game

Well, things did change after Arab String.

For worse.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#249

Post by bouncycastle » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 5:19 PM UTC

nickik wrote: post #204

bouncycastle wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And peaceful protestors can also be massacred and completely fail to bring about any change Can you give an example? Every example I can think of right now that had a massacre of innocent protestors and no armed struggle either led to some change later down the road (eg. galvanizing the movement, reforms, or total collapse of the opressor), or became a major problem for the oppressor later down the track. A massacr…

Your reading history backwards. You assume that while 1970 protest, leads to 1980 protest and that lead to the fall of the Soviet Union. However that is wrong way to look at it, the right way is that in 1970 the Soviet Union had the will do stop the protesters, but not later. Those things mostly have to do with the discussions and political institutions the elites were working in. The protesters in late 1980 might ha…

Nope. Totally wrong. Those early protests, even though seemingly unsuccessful at the time, gave the people one important thing: hope.

Of course, the other motivating factor was that the economy went to shit. People were hungry and tired of waiting in long queues with shelves at the stores almost empty. Nothing to do with "discussions and political institutions the elites were working in" though.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#250

Post by mistermann » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 5:21 PM UTC

nolok wrote: post #131

antpls wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For comparison, the Yellow Vests movement in France obtained basically none of their demands after months of protests. Some demands were partially implemented by the government, but I can't think of any demand that has been effectively fully approved and implemented.

For comparison the yellow vest represented not even a percent of the population during the biggest event, and barely a few thousands most of the time in a country of almost 70 millions. They didn’t represent the majority at all and while Macron approval rating may seem low at just above 30% it’s still the highest rated party leader left or right wing. It’s a long going protest of a vocal minority (which doesn’t say a…

> For comparison the yellow vest represented not even a percent of the population during the biggest event

I've always wondered about public support, is this 1% based on substantial polling?