Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

scmp.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 348 posts

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#71

Post by jplayer01 »

anvandare wrote: post #62
dragonsh wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. This is endorsed and approved by Beijing, she already declared the bill dead this is just a matter of wording. Legally it can be brought back as laws are always evolving and Hong Kong needs an extradition treaty with other jurisdiction including another system in its own country. For Mainland Chinese citizen the narrative will be altered, but will still be seen as…

>only peaceful non-violent struggle can bring about real change. Utterly false, but persistently preached by those in power to ensure there's never any real threat to their position. "Just lie down while I stomp your neck. Don't resist. We'll discuss your objections later, at a more convenient time." All political power emanates from the barrel of a gun. All civil power emanates from the people's latent threat to rev…

The non-violent protest thing seems like a myth that needs to be taken out back and shot, violently. We've seen for decades what they accomplish - absolutely nothing.

It reminds me of this. https://theconversation.com/the-forgotten-violence-that-help...

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#72

Post by tobtoh »

dirtyid wrote: post #2

I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. In context of Lams leaked resignation remarks yesterday, it looks like Lam is going rogue. She's setting herself up to be replaced via disobedience, because all signs pointed to Emergency Regulations Ordinance being invoked if protest continues. Her legacy is already ruined, but I think she doesn't have the stomach to double down that far. Beijing specifically instr…

I would argue that Beijing didn't anticipate the resolve of the protestors, but they would certainly know about and endorse Lam's backdown.

China is happy to play the long game - they apply pressure to HK to bring them inline with China, people protest, they back of a little, but not all the way. They wait ... then apply pressure again. The idea is that by 2047 when the 'one country, two systems' arrangement expires, HK will fully accept the China way of life. Lam backing down is an easy way to defuse the situation for now and they can try again later.

I expect to see this cycle of peace, then protest, then peace again continue for years - each time, HK will lose a few more rights they used to have.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#73

Post by win2020big »

Hong kong Gov should meet all 5 demands from hker, otherwise the bomb will keep on fire..Thausands people still been captured illegal.. Hong kong is great city and place for Chinese people to discuss the democracy and freedom .. freedom land for billion people Hope..

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#74

Post by piker »

nroets wrote: post #49
AFascistWorld wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pork consumption 2016 in metric tons: China 54,070,000 America 9,452,000 Brazil 2,811,000 It's estimated that the supply gap will be 20,000,000 tons in 2020, I don't think Brazil can supply that even if they ditch pork. The whole planet can't supply it. https://www.statista.com/statistics/237619/export-of-pork-in...

I was in China for 3 months this year. Both rural and urban areas. People said "You will never be hungry in China" and they are right. They are enough substitutes for pork, many of them just as delicious.

> "You will never be hungry in China"

Quite a bold statement, given China's recent history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#75

Post by acd10j »

dirtyid wrote: post #2

I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. In context of Lams leaked resignation remarks yesterday, it looks like Lam is going rogue. She's setting herself up to be replaced via disobedience, because all signs pointed to Emergency Regulations Ordinance being invoked if protest continues. Her legacy is already ruined, but I think she doesn't have the stomach to double down that far. Beijing specifically instr…

I think this is best workaround/outcome for both parties. With protesters not backing down, Beijing can now declare Lam has gone rogue and save its face. Cracking down on protesters definitely was not working. With international media presence they cannot crack down on protesters Tiananmen square style.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#76

Post by dirtyid »

dragonsh wrote: post #47
dirtyid wrote: post #2

I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. In context of Lams leaked resignation remarks yesterday, it looks like Lam is going rogue. She's setting herself up to be replaced via disobedience, because all signs pointed to Emergency Regulations Ordinance being invoked if protest continues. Her legacy is already ruined, but I think she doesn't have the stomach to double down that far. Beijing specifically instr…

> I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. This is endorsed and approved by Beijing, she already declared the bill dead this is just a matter of wording. Legally it can be brought back as laws are always evolving and Hong Kong needs an extradition treaty with other jurisdiction including another system in its own country. For Mainland Chinese citizen the narrative will be altered, but will still be seen as…

IMO it's endorsed and approved in the sense that Lam left them no choice. Her resignation leak was yesterday, partly to signal to Beijing that ERO will not happen under her watch without an attempt at reconciliation and within 24 hours we get this announcement. 5 days ago, Beijing instructed her not to give a single inch and hinted at ERO was on the horizon.

>For Mainland Chinese citizen the narrative will be altered, but will still be seen as symbolic defeat and for Hong Kong Chinese citizens it will be a symbolic win.

Any other time and I would agree, but Xi just scored "people's leader" on August 25th, 70th anniversary is on October 1st, "symbolic defeat" is not in the cards. Together with rejection of Lam's proposal and effort to appease protesters as little as last week, I think we can either view this development as Beijing dealing with Lam cracking without warning. Or this as a calculated ploy to justify ERO on the assumption that the olive branch will not be well received by protesters. Lam's speech politely but explicitly said 4/5 demands would not be met.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#77

Post by mikekchar »

anvandare wrote: post #62
dragonsh wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. This is endorsed and approved by Beijing, she already declared the bill dead this is just a matter of wording. Legally it can be brought back as laws are always evolving and Hong Kong needs an extradition treaty with other jurisdiction including another system in its own country. For Mainland Chinese citizen the narrative will be altered, but will still be seen as…

>only peaceful non-violent struggle can bring about real change. Utterly false, but persistently preached by those in power to ensure there's never any real threat to their position. "Just lie down while I stomp your neck. Don't resist. We'll discuss your objections later, at a more convenient time." All political power emanates from the barrel of a gun. All civil power emanates from the people's latent threat to rev…

A revolution is round :-) Of course one can't generalise at all, but very frequently quick change results in replacing one system with another that resembles the first one an awful lot. Real, long lasting change requires a long time to influence culture and to wait until the time is right to move.

However, I will also agree that usually violence is involved, even if one side doesn't participate. Gandhi referred to the people who participated in non-violent protests as soldiers because he knew that many would die.

I don't think violence is the ultimate answer. The ultimate answer is the answer that works. There are many paths to the same location. It's probably best to review your options before you decide which ones to exclude.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#78

Post by dirtyid »

tobtoh wrote: post #72
dirtyid wrote: post #2

I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. In context of Lams leaked resignation remarks yesterday, it looks like Lam is going rogue. She's setting herself up to be replaced via disobedience, because all signs pointed to Emergency Regulations Ordinance being invoked if protest continues. Her legacy is already ruined, but I think she doesn't have the stomach to double down that far. Beijing specifically instr…

I would argue that Beijing didn't anticipate the resolve of the protestors, but they would certainly know about and endorse Lam's backdown. China is happy to play the long game - they apply pressure to HK to bring them inline with China, people protest, they back of a little, but not all the way. They wait ... then apply pressure again. The idea is that by 2047 when the 'one country, two systems' arrangement expires,…

Normally I would attribute cold technocrat calculations to Beijing as well, but circumstance is dramatically different as of 10 days ago. Xi just scored "people's leader" on August 25th, announced they will not appease HK protesters a few days later, domestic nationalism as been endorsed and cultivated (extremely rare for HK / internal matters), 70th anniversary is on October 1st. I don't think Xi is going to start his first month as people's leader capitulating to HK when the mainland is already at a frenzy. There's a reason CPC doesn't usually play the nationalism card, it's extremely hard to walk back.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#79

Post by koonsolo »

msla wrote: post #43
arcturus17 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the drastic shift we have undergone as a human consciousness I don't really know what this means, but if you think that the inherent nature of the human soul has changed in the last few decades, think again... If tomorrow there was a catastrophic event such as a worldwide nuclear fallout, humans would be at each other's throats in the blink of an eye. The only thing really keeping us together are institutions and c…

I think humans have become less prone to cruelty over the centuries. Bear-baiting was a common sport; these days, I bet most of you will have to look up what it even was, and will be horrified to learn about it. War remains horrible, but it is no longer fought within grabbing range with great big hammers and sharpened pieces of metal. Humans aren't just genetics: We're culture and, perhaps, epigenetics as well, and c…

I know a Romanian who was 18 at the Romenian revolution. He says it takes only 2 weeks to get used to dead bodies on the street.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#80

Post by dragonsh »

anvandare wrote: post #62
dragonsh wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. This is endorsed and approved by Beijing, she already declared the bill dead this is just a matter of wording. Legally it can be brought back as laws are always evolving and Hong Kong needs an extradition treaty with other jurisdiction including another system in its own country. For Mainland Chinese citizen the narrative will be altered, but will still be seen as…

>only peaceful non-violent struggle can bring about real change. Utterly false, but persistently preached by those in power to ensure there's never any real threat to their position. "Just lie down while I stomp your neck. Don't resist. We'll discuss your objections later, at a more convenient time." All political power emanates from the barrel of a gun. All civil power emanates from the people's latent threat to rev…

> Utterly false, but persistently preached by those in power

A non-violent protestor is a person who does not fear anything, and the person who doesn't fear is the most powerful one.

Violence is a result of fear, that's the reason need to use weapons and aids to fight back to increase the chances of survival. A true warrior is a fearless person who respond to violence with non-violence and make violent person ashamed of themselves.

It's very easy to fight violently, every animal do it including us. We are at least evolved to tame our violent urges and that's what makes us a human.

> All political power emanates from barrel of gun

This is the famous quote of Mao Zedong (毛泽东). "Power flows from the barrel of gun"

You might believe in it like every violent protestor. I don't. I believe power flows from the depth of heart and mind based on our connection with universe, nature and our endeavor to keep it balanced without resorting to violence.

> Second amendment

It's not a sacred thing, there are many places in this world way more safe and peaceful without the second amendment.

Post reply on HN