We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too • Hacker News Board

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#141

Post by tk75x » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 2:07 PM UTC

teddyuk wrote: post #34

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but like parent said, we're starved of time. I would love to bike or take public transport to work but that's over an hour of commute vs 20-25 minutes by car and I don't live in the middle of nowhere but in a medium sized European city. The problem is the employers who move to the sticks, far away from the cties, where office space is cheapest and assume their workers can afford cars and should commute. Not only…

In london commuter trains are over crowded and they spend millions (billions?) every year on upgrading and it costs me about £900 a month to use these trains. If governments incentivised companies to encourage remote work, this money would be unnecessary as many people wouldn't commute any more - saving money for everyone, saving the environment and allowing people to have a home life and see their kids/partner etc.…

How is your monthly cost that high? Based on some quick googling, the daily cap for zone 1-6 travel tops out under 20 pounds which would come to 600 pounds for 30 days assuming you travel every day. The 7 day caps top out around 60 pounds which would be 240 pounds for 4 weeks of commuting. You could probably get a small, fuel-efficient car and the total costs of ownership would save you money over what you claim to pay currently.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#142

Post by dwild » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

propater wrote: post #11

trabant00 wrote: post #3

Reading this from Eastern Europe the "you" in: "You destroy our lands" "that common enemy is you" "We call on you to stop what you are doing" "When your money comes into our communities" etc sound very wrong. I imagine it also sounds weird for people in America who have no connections with what happens in the Amazon.

I am always a bit baffled when, after decades of living in a globalized economy, people who are part of advanced economies claim they have no connections to events, driven by economics, occurring on the other side of the world. If you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most likely connected to the intern…

> Even if you are not doing any of that, you are still connected because you live in the middle of a society that reaps economic and material benefits from the structures that ultimately incentivize said deforestation.

Then they are also responsible because their government profit from it?

Everything is connected... the fact that it's connected doesn't means anything.

Your comment won't show anything, it won't change anything, it won't help anyone. You are simply making blanket accusation, like if even someone could simply no longer depends on the economy... that's so absurd.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#143

Post by addicted » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 2:56 PM UTC

dwild wrote: post #142

propater wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am always a bit baffled when, after decades of living in a globalized economy, people who are part of advanced economies claim they have no connections to events, driven by economics, occurring on the other side of the world. If you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most likely connected to the intern…

> Even if you are not doing any of that, you are still connected because you live in the middle of a society that reaps economic and material benefits from the structures that ultimately incentivize said deforestation. Then they are also responsible because their government profit from it? Everything is connected... the fact that it's connected doesn't means anything. Your comment won't show anything, it won't change…

Except “their government”, in this case, is actively fighting against them. The whole point is that Bolsonaro has declared open season on the Amazon and the tribes living in it.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#144

Post by johnisgood » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

propater wrote: post #137

johnisgood wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They said that you are "connected" to deforestation if you are living in a developed economy - you interpreted that as implying that all people in developed economies are sinning. They didn't say that everyone is guilty, just connected. He replied to "if you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most like…

Stop thinking in terms of individual guilt and how to avoid it, think in terms of collective responsibility. What do we need to do to solve the problem, not what do I need to do to exculpate myself from it.

The only difference is that my behavior is under my control, while what others do is outside of my control (yes, I can have an influence on people, or I could use force, etc. but this really is besides the point).

My question still stands. As an individual, what can I do to stop contributing to say, deforestation? How do I become "unconnected"? If you want, you could also answer this question not in terms of the individual, but the group of people (collective). What should I do? What should we do? These two questions are different, and they may have two entirely different answers. If not, then what does it matter if I asked it from the POV of the individual? Feel free to answer both of them if you wish.

For the sake of the discussion, please do not assume individual guilt. I did not ask what to do to exculpate myself from it.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#145

Post by johnisgood » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 5:10 PM UTC

Fjolsvith wrote: post #138

johnisgood wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They said that you are "connected" to deforestation if you are living in a developed economy - you interpreted that as implying that all people in developed economies are sinning. They didn't say that everyone is guilty, just connected. He replied to "if you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most like…

> Now my question is, how do we become unconnected? That's easy. The people of the Amazon pass some laws that protect their land. America has this form of protection vs exploitation. Brazil needs to get with the program. Its not an American problem - I eat corn fed beef and pork from Kansas and Nebraska.

This does not answer my question sufficiently, because it does not address this (posted by propater): "even if you are not doing any of that, you are still connected because you live in the middle of a society that reaps economic and material benefits from the structures that ultimately incentivise said deforestation.".

According to the aforementioned quote, you may eat corn fed beef and pork from Kansas and Nebraska, but you still "live in the middle of a society that reaps economic and material benefits from the structures that ultimately incentivise said deforestation.". I am curious what propater had in mind as a solution to this.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#146

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 5:12 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #135

TeMPOraL wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you kind of have to - otherwise people starve. There's lot of excesses and pointless elements to economies worldwide, but ultimately, at minimum they have to grow to compensate for population growth, or people will starve. And they really have to grow more than that, because a lot of people live in bad conditions and they justifiably want to earn their way out of it. Growth is currently needed in the world we l…

> There's lot of excesses and pointless elements to economies worldwide, but ultimately, at minimum they have to grow to compensate for population growth, or people will starve. Several issues with this. There's no requirement that we need to have "population growth" above replacement rate. In fact we should probably have below for a while - and in many western countries we do. In which case "we need growth because w…

RE second point, you can shift wealth from the richest to the poorest, but if you equalize everything and now everyone is miserable, you'll still need growth to correct this further.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#147

Post by Fjolsvith » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 5:41 PM UTC

johnisgood wrote: post #145

Fjolsvith wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now my question is, how do we become unconnected? That's easy. The people of the Amazon pass some laws that protect their land. America has this form of protection vs exploitation. Brazil needs to get with the program. Its not an American problem - I eat corn fed beef and pork from Kansas and Nebraska.

This does not answer my question sufficiently, because it does not address this (posted by propater): "even if you are not doing any of that, you are still connected because you live in the middle of a society that reaps economic and material benefits from the structures that ultimately incentivise said deforestation.". According to the aforementioned quote, you may eat corn fed beef and pork from Kansas and Nebraska…

The problem with his question is it assumes the society that is consuming is the one that is to blame for the deforestation. If America quit incentivising through policies, China or some other country would just pick up the supply.

The supply needs to be addressed at the source. That's the only correct solution.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#148

Post by CalRobert » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 6:32 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #131

CalRobert wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could also make it easier for people to live near their jobs. It's surprising how quickly you hit low density areas, even near the train.

That would have worked in the days of a job for life but now, once you have a family, you can't keep moving every 2-3 years where your next job will be.

Sure, but if many good jobs are in the same city and dense, family-friendly housing near transit is available, you don't need to move.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#149

Post by dredmorbius » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #84

missosoup wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. Changing diets yes. Changing driving habits, not really. Personal use of passenger vehicles accounts for a tiny fraction of transportation related CO2 emissions. The overwhelming majority comes from cargo ships and associated logistics. A typical cargo ship will burn about 30 liters of bunker fuel (far more polluting than…

This is simply false. http://www.etipbioenergy.eu/images/overview-fig-3.jpg Worldwide, light-duty vehicles, mostly passenger transport cars and light trucks, account for 53% of transport fuel use. Trucks are 17%. Rail and busses are 3% and 4%. All marine fuel use is 10%. Aviation is another 10%. All other uses: 3%. For the US, use is even more strongly skewed to passenger vehicles: 59%. http://www.yaleclimateconnecti…

For those for whom the suspence has been simply unbearable: Marine cargo shipping achieves cargo fuel efficiency rates of as much as 1,000 ton-miles/gallon.

For passenger cars, the low mileage expressed in ton miles is largely due to the very low cargo utilisation. I'm using a single passenger of 150# here. You can increase net efficiency somewhat, but even, say, four 250# passengers and some luggage makes for only a modest improvement, as the starting point is single-digit tmpg.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#150

Post by dredmorbius » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #71

mantesso wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Personal use of passenger vehicles accounts for a tiny fraction of transportation related CO2 emissions. The overwhelming majority comes from cargo ships and associated logistics. while this might represent a small fraction of the global total emissions, the CO2 (and other harmful particles) produced by cars is much more detrimental to human health since it will be concentrated in the cities and near humans live. Th…

This is correct. If we ignore catastrophic climate change, the next worst thing is being directly exposed to personal transportation pollutants - amongst which CO2 is pretty benign but there is far worse stuff. Living next to major roads or highways significantly reduces life expectancy. https://www.lung.org/our-initiatives/healthy-air/outdoor/air...

Particulates and SO4 are short-term acute pollutants. They are problems, but the problem is localised (shipping routes, ports), and settles out fairly quickly.

The scope is significant -- you can see shipping lanes simply by the SOx emissions, as the Nullschool Weather Visualiser shows, here, traffic between Indonesia and the Gulf of Aden is clearly visible:

https://earth.nullschool.net/#2019/09/03/1800Z/chem/surface/...

But: CO2 remains resident in the atmosphere for centuries or millennia, affecting long-term climate. It's a vastly larger problem.

Moreover, particulates and SOx can be mitigated with improved fuel quality and stack scrubbers, at relatively low (though nonzero) costs. CO2 emissions are intrinsic to hydrocarbon combustion. We either have to stop burning anything with carbon in it, or switch to biomass (present-cycle carbon) rather than fossil-fuel based sources. Which is its own problem, though potentially tractable for shipping using various biomass wastestream sources.