Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts” • Hacker News Board

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#271

Post by pfranz » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 6:02 PM UTC

cr0sh wrote: post #270

pfranz wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How far are they willing to go? I wouldn't be surprised London has similar problems, but in LA I owned a house on a "back road" that ran parallel to the 405 going north over a hill. The house was built 100 years ago. Neighbors told me the road was fine until Waze/Google maps about 10 years ago. My small house went up in value quite a bit the few years I was there, but if I wanted to buy a house on a cul-de-sac it wou…

I wonder if they could add speed bumps/tables to slow the traffic down? That might be one solution - and fairly inexpensive, too.

LA has been adding them all over. I really hate speed bumps. It feels like a band-aid on a design problem that just causes premature wear on your car--but it might be their best option.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#272

Post by intopieces » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

someguydave wrote: post #244

intopieces wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your counter argument does not account for negative externalities resulting from increase road travel. Have you ever been to LA? 16 lanes of traffic and still clogged. Poorer air quality. Suburbs miles from work. Better yet, have you ever been to China? They are already leaning this lesson of induced demand, as have Singapore. From too-low fuel taxes to too wide roads, driving is far too cheap in the US thanks to the…

Standing in way of building roads is also destroying potential economic growth. Benefits come with harms; the question is how to balance them.

How many roads have been expanded in the Bay Area? Not many. How has the economic growth been? Substantial.

The future is remote. Unmitigated sprawl is unnecessary and harmful.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#273

Post by fernandopj » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 6:12 PM UTC

eli wrote: post #181

krn wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google Maps has real time traffic data and the accuracy is staggering. But does Google Maps use real time traffic data to calculate the most optimal route in the same way as Waze does? As I understand, that's the main difference between the two.

Yes, they definitely both take traffic into account when calculating a route. My suspicion is that they're actually using the same raw data, but Waze is tuned to be more aggressive. Waze routinely guides me off a main road onto a side street to avoid two blocks of congestion for a net gain of maybe 1 minute, Google Maps doesn't.

In my experience this is very much true - in Sao Paulo, Waze is heavily used by everyone, and I mostly use Ubers and taxis while working here - and the agressiveness in which Waze will suggest a 5-more-turns, using local roads, to gain (maybe) one minute really sets them apart from Google Maps.

Google Maps' UI is tuned to show you alternatives and their ETA, and it's up to you to take them or not - Waze will just update routes without user input.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#274

Post by cannonedhamster » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 6:34 PM UTC

orthoxerox wrote: post #147

> These thousands of homeowners and renters have arguably been injured by Waze’s and Google’s successful privatization of formerly public streets. That's a... very creative interpetation of what public and private mean. If you don't want your side street to be driven on at 30 mph, then you can't drive on it at 30 mph either. Traffic calming measures are a thing. Make it even more winding, add road bumps, bottlenecks.…

My road is a winding country lane in a small city. The speed limit is 30MPH. Visibility is poor, the street winds and narrows. People have run into houses, but that doesn't stop people from gunning it to 60-70MPH on the small straight sections that exist and throwing their liquor bottles into my yard. People don't care about other people when they get behind the wheel of a vehicle and their aren't enough police to solve the problem. People are the problem.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#275

Post by cannonedhamster » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 6:40 PM UTC

matt-attack wrote: post #193

floatingatoll wrote: post #150

It’s disappointing to see LADOT neglecting to use a road management tool already at their disposal to stop Waze’s abuse of their residential zones: No Thru Traffic. Posting NTT signs at entry points into residential neighborhoods and specifying even as little as a $5 fine would make entry for thru routing unlawful, stopping Waze. Whether or not the city enforces these signs would be irrelevant, as long as the traffic…

And to what end? I’m of the firm belief that the good done by Waze far outweighs the cost to the NIMBYs. In LA we have a traffic crisis. Sorry but your government built and tax funded residential street is just as much mine to use as it is yours. I won’t speed through it but I sure as hell have a right to use it as much as the local home owners. The city should not be doing what your suggesting until they’ve solved t…

You apparently didn't read the article. Traffic got worse after Waze, not better. Now the highways are jammed and the side streets which has made traffic worse overall and drive times slower. Waze created a worse problem. The solution is to create better public transportation and can more cars. There's a solution, I'm just sure you won't like it.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#276

Post by bmsleight_ » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 7:00 PM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #189

simplesleeper wrote: post #80

Transport for London Tech Lead here. In London, we have been collaborating with google waze - we provide them with information at the local level. Streets that waze should not use for route finding (e.g. roads with schools) can be blocked for use by Waze. Both local councils and TfL can provide this data. The main difference between Waze and Google Maps is that Waze uses real time traffic data. There are multiple map…

"when the roads are mostly paid for by the cost of the London Underground" Taxes on fuel used in motor vehicles (duties and VAT) are something like 30bn GBP/year in the UK. London has about 1/6th of the UK's population, so let's assume 5bn/year comes from London. That's 5x the annual operating profit of London Underground[0]. Government income and expenditure is fungible, so it's hard to determine precisely whether X…

The central government does not pass on this income to Transport for London (TfL). So TfL has to fund the maintenance of the major roads (aka Red Routes) in London from the income from London Underground.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#277

Post by bmsleight_ » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 7:02 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #232

rahimnathwani wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"when the roads are mostly paid for by the cost of the London Underground" Taxes on fuel used in motor vehicles (duties and VAT) are something like 30bn GBP/year in the UK. London has about 1/6th of the UK's population, so let's assume 5bn/year comes from London. That's 5x the annual operating profit of London Underground[0]. Government income and expenditure is fungible, so it's hard to determine precisely whether X…

Aside from the ~£30b raised in fuel taxes, there's also the ~£6b raised in vehicle excise taxes. Both of those revenue streams go into a government general fund and are not allocated specifically for road maintenance, because they collect about 3x what is actually spent on highway & road infrastructure each year. [1] In short, the roads & highways are massively profitable. London's buses however, lose nearly ~£1b a y…

"revenue streams go into a government general fund" Yes but not to TfL, who has to fund this via Tube income.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#278

Post by sheepybloke » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 7:03 PM UTC

This is an issue on country roads as well. I was driving down to Cinci and Google had me cut from one freeway to the next via some county side roads. We got flicked off by some guy at his house, and from the traffic, it seemed like he was frustrated how many cars were now going down his once quiet road.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#279

Post by WhiteOwlLion » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 7:17 PM UTC

eli wrote: post #181

krn wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google Maps has real time traffic data and the accuracy is staggering. But does Google Maps use real time traffic data to calculate the most optimal route in the same way as Waze does? As I understand, that's the main difference between the two.

Yes, they definitely both take traffic into account when calculating a route. My suspicion is that they're actually using the same raw data, but Waze is tuned to be more aggressive. Waze routinely guides me off a main road onto a side street to avoid two blocks of congestion for a net gain of maybe 1 minute, Google Maps doesn't.

Waze aggressiveness is ridiculous. They don't factor in the time waiting in queue to turn left, the intersections you may have to cross causing delays, etc versus just staying the course on a main road. The only benefit are the minute savers that fall for the new route clearing up traffic for me to stay the course. In that way, Waze is great for me while making others take "shortcuts" that really aren't shortcuts.

Re: Traffic apps turned L.A.’s neighborhoods into ”shortcuts”

#280

Post by lucas_membrane » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 7:17 PM UTC

L.A. has been a shortcut city for a very long time. It is almost 50 years since I resided there; back then good shortcuts got mentioned in the gossip columns, and magazine articles were written about great shortcuts. The difference now is that the solutions are newer, high-tech, and more expensive, but the problem is much worse.