Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas • Hacker News Board

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#231

Post by blauekapelle » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:50 AM UTC

nevi-me wrote: post #215

SergeAx wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of free software is that user can (and have the right to) modify it in any way one wants. If I found a bug in free software, I can fix it by myself or wait for someone else to fix it, or pay someone to make a fix. That's the way it works. (edit: typo)

But what's the difference between open source, free, and "source available" for inspection?

Open source: source is freely available online.

Free software: free for modification, expansion or forking. Possibly free for profit (BSD license)

Source Available: Source is available but under restrictions. Locked room source viewing under NDA to confirm there aren't vulnerabilities for example.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#232

Post by bryanrasmussen » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:52 AM UTC

filleduchaos wrote: post #227

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess my definition of open source is that you can read the source so you theoretically know what you're getting or if things don't go the way you want you can figure out why. This means that open source could theoretically be free as in Mel Gibson shouting but not free as in money found in between the cushions of your couch. That said I dislike MongoDB but for various other reasons.

And so what do you do after "figuring out why" when you're not actually free to modify the software?

well often when I read the source of a library (or tool or framework or what term we wish to use), even one that I am free to modify the source of, I will see that the way I thought I was going to solve my problem was not the way to do it and I will need to alter my code not the code of the library.

In a few occasions I see that I need to alter the library, if I do not have the rights to do that then I would probably end up dropping the library as being inadequate to the task.

In some occasions I have seen that I would like to get rid of the library but I am generally not allowed to by other business decisions, in those cases I have always been able to find some hack that allows me to do what I need to even if it goes against the preconceptions of the used library. I then make extensive comments in my code explaining why, probably referring to the other solutions I would prefer to use and explaining why I was unable to do so.

Why? What do you do?

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#233

Post by bryanrasmussen » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:58 AM UTC

gwd wrote: post #229

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess my definition of open source is that you can read the source so you theoretically know what you're getting or if things don't go the way you want you can figure out why. This means that open source could theoretically be free as in Mel Gibson shouting but not free as in money found in between the cushions of your couch. That said I dislike MongoDB but for various other reasons.

> I guess my definition of open source... Then you've misunderstood what "open source" means. The term "open source" was invented specifically to describe software with the following properties (among others) [1]: ~~~ 1. Free Redistribution The license shall not restrict any party from selling or giving away the software as a component of an aggregate software distribution containing programs from several different s…

there's a bunch of stuff on HN currently about not believing everything you're told and fake memories and such, but anyway I could swear that this has not always been the exact definition - that this definition, and the referenced site, have sort of taken over the definition and applied an extreme version of the term.

I believe this because I also believe there used to be two terms open source, and free, that these were distinct, and that all things that were open source were not necessarily free or vice versa. But it seems to me with the above definition that all things which are open source must then be free although all things that are free still do not need to be open source.

on edit: clarified I was referring to HN in first use of the term "site"

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#234

Post by StavrosK » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 10:02 AM UTC

nailer wrote: post #228

goatinaboat wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope somebody forks MongoDB from the version when it was open source. That no one has done that already suggests that no one thinks it’s worth doing. And it isn’t, Postgres is properly free, and more than surpasses Mongo in all aspects.

Coming from Rethink and Mongo I don't like SQL. I don't want rows at all, or documentation that assumes a table model. Having a JSON data type doesn't mean you're a document store.

Postgres can do JSON. Does MongoDB have schemas yet?

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#235

Post by StavrosK » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 10:03 AM UTC

blauekapelle wrote: post #231

nevi-me wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what's the difference between open source, free, and "source available" for inspection?

Open source: source is freely available online. Free software: free for modification, expansion or forking. Possibly free for profit (BSD license) Source Available: Source is available but under restrictions. Locked room source viewing under NDA to confirm there aren't vulnerabilities for example.

Open source/free software: You can download, modify and re-release the source.

Source-available: You can view the source, perhaps freely, but can't modify or release your modifications.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#236

Post by alchemism » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 10:08 AM UTC

SergeAx wrote: post #214

Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I inherited a MongoDB Ruby (Mongoid) stack that was a terrible choice for the data stored (i.e. relational data). Actually, I'm not really sure why Mongoid exists at all. After several years of pain e.g. cursor timeouts (even when supposedly disabled), iterating over the same document multiple times in the one query etc. and of course no transactions (since added). I eventually migrated to PSQL (using some custom scr…

What is the point of running containerized DB server in production? Isn't it an anti-pattern?

That’s usually a sign that there is no Ops on staff to prevent the Devs from doing it, yes.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#237

Post by nevi-me » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 10:08 AM UTC

nailer wrote: post #230

nevi-me wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what's the difference between open source, free, and "source available" for inspection?

This is easily searchable.

I'm not asking for lack of knowledge, but I was asking the parent as they needed to make the distinction.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#238

Post by StavrosK » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 10:13 AM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #193

elevenbits wrote: post #187

I'm astonished at all the comments that vilify MongoDB Inc and then talk about moving to AWS's MongoDB clone. What sort of twisted world are we living in where a company makes a service, tries to sell the service, and then are lambasted when they try to prevent a competitor from copying it wholesale? Cloud providers have been able to stand on the shoulders of giants, profiting immensely from millions of lines of open…

We live in the world where we can see a bait and switch for what it is. MongoDB was advertised as being Open Source and Free Software , distributed under an OSI-compliant and FSF-compliant license. Now they are trying to eat their cake and have it too. > " then are lambasted when they try to prevent a competitor from copying it wholesale? " Because that's not what open source is about. Open source is about contributi…

Can someone explain to me what the license changes are? From what I saw, they just strengthened the AGPLv3 a bit, and it seems to me like a better license. Sure, more restrictive, but in the right direction (like the GPL is more restrictive towards having to share than the MIT license is).

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#239

Post by pizza234 » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 10:18 AM UTC

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #233

gwd wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess my definition of open source... Then you've misunderstood what "open source" means. The term "open source" was invented specifically to describe software with the following properties (among others) [1]: ~~~ 1. Free Redistribution The license shall not restrict any party from selling or giving away the software as a component of an aggregate software distribution containing programs from several different s…

there's a bunch of stuff on HN currently about not believing everything you're told and fake memories and such, but anyway I could swear that this has not always been the exact definition - that this definition, and the referenced site, have sort of taken over the definition and applied an extreme version of the term. I believe this because I also believe there used to be two terms open source, and free, that these w…

> I could swear that this has not always been the exact definition

Following the "paper trail", the chronology is:

1. the "Open Source Definition", last modification in 2007, is based on "The Debian Free Software Guidelines", I suppose v1.1

2. the "Debian Free Software Guidelines" v1.1 was ratified in 2004, and is based on v1.0

3. the "Debian Free Software Guidelines" v1.0 was ratified in 1997

so ultimately, in strict terms (but that's arguable), the "Open Source Definition" is newer.

Re: Homebrew removes MongoDB from core formulas

#240

Post by nabdab » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 10:42 AM UTC

elevenbits wrote: post #187

I'm astonished at all the comments that vilify MongoDB Inc and then talk about moving to AWS's MongoDB clone. What sort of twisted world are we living in where a company makes a service, tries to sell the service, and then are lambasted when they try to prevent a competitor from copying it wholesale? Cloud providers have been able to stand on the shoulders of giants, profiting immensely from millions of lines of open…

> lambasted when they try to prevent a competitor from copying it wholesale?

I feel like if just cannot be repeated enough: You control which license your software is supplied under! If you want to create open source software, you have to live by that decision and follow the license. You can’t slap an open license on the software and complain when people “abuse” the fact that it’s open.