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Hong Kong protestors using Bridgefy's Bluetooth-based mesh network messaging app

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Re: Hong Kong protestors using Bridgefy's Bluetooth-based mesh network messaging app

#121

Post by kilburn »

cwyers wrote: post #118
radicalriddler wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that's the point. You need to download the APK or whatever IOS provides for developer packages. This means less tracking from the vendor (Google, Apple)

1) It doesn't seem to be a principled decision to stay out of the App Store on the part of Serval's author, who says "trying to get the app approved for release on the Apple App Store. But that will be an adventure for another day." https://servalpaul.blogspot.com/2018/11/serval-chat-ios-port... 2) This wasn't planned out months in advance. This is a protest that is organically sprouting up. Nobody wants to add jailb…

3) I think the worry is China forcing Apple to produce this info (list of HK users with said app installed), not what Apple themselves would do with it. Maybe not a dealbreaker, but something to consider...

Re: Hong Kong protestors using Bridgefy's Bluetooth-based mesh network messaging app

#122

Post by Phlarp »

rladd wrote: post #97
Phlarp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This burner phone and your "real" phone are going to be easy to correlate retroactively based on the towers they are both hitting

They could turn off cellular and turn on bluetooth.

The baseband radio still communicates with the tower in airplane mode.

Re: Hong Kong protestors using Bridgefy's Bluetooth-based mesh network messaging app

#123

Post by Illniyar »

iancarroll wrote: post #117
Illniyar wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to install apps on ios outside the appstore.

Xcode is able to dynamically generate a development provisioning profile, even if you do not have a (paid) developer account. So side-loading is definitely possible, in some respects.

You need to create a developer account, learn how to use xCode (not at all trivial), and even with all that you need to reinstall it every 7 days.

Effectively sideloading does not exist. The fact that 0.001 percent of people who own an iPhone can, with great effort, sideload apps is irrelevant.

Re: Hong Kong protestors using Bridgefy's Bluetooth-based mesh network messaging app

#124

Post by rqs »

dragonsh wrote: post #49

No closed source mesh networking can be secure. However good user experience it has. They are no different than using WhatsApp. Indeed in that respect at least Signal is better. I am not sure why protestors did not adopt the open source serval mesh project apk and ios app. [1] In Hong Kong given the density of building it's bit hard to have a line of sight, so it will still be hard to build a local network. But it's…

You know something is good when it has to be recommended twice in one comment.

I like to add one point here: Mesh network is not only good for protest, it also useful when network is unstable, for example during bad weather, disastrous event etc. Let's don't forget mesh net can also be use to off-load some of the traffic from the "Normal network", plus good for privacy (If the network is built on top a verified open source structure).

I don't think it's a good idea of advertising a type of tech "good for protest/revolution/revolt/something like that". If you do that, the tech will never be adopted.

Re: Hong Kong protestors using Bridgefy's Bluetooth-based mesh network messaging app

#125

Post by i_am_proteus »

ma2rten wrote: post #100
i_am_proteus wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same experience and was disappointed. But a good mesh app is inherently difficult to monetize! Combining mesh over some/several form(s) of 802.11, Signal protocol public key distribution "locally" via QR code, and Delay-Tolerant Networking (Cerf et al. 2007) would be the holy grail (and would have no reliance on SMS or phone number) and also could not be monetized. Which is a damn shame, because it's eminen…

Does everything need to be monetized?

No! But assembling the talent to build a product without a potential source of revenue is difficult.

Re: Hong Kong protestors using Bridgefy's Bluetooth-based mesh network messaging app

#126

Post by newscracker »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #35
cwyers wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would it being open source solve the problem of addressing?

Addresses can be made non-identifying.

Then why hasn’t that happened with Signal yet? Being open source may not have much of a correlation on how features change for such apps.

Re: Hong Kong protestors using Bridgefy's Bluetooth-based mesh network messaging app

#127

Post by newscracker »

iancarroll wrote: post #117
Illniyar wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to install apps on ios outside the appstore.

Xcode is able to dynamically generate a development provisioning profile, even if you do not have a (paid) developer account. So side-loading is definitely possible, in some respects.

Unable to reply to Illniyar’s comment below. To add to those points on the difficulty (actually practical impossibility), you’d also need to have access to a Mac to do all those things every seven days. That’s a very big ask, along with the technical know how to use Xcode, for so many people in Hong Kong.

Re: Hong Kong protestors using Bridgefy's Bluetooth-based mesh network messaging app

#128

Post by cwyers »

kilburn wrote: post #121
cwyers wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) It doesn't seem to be a principled decision to stay out of the App Store on the part of Serval's author, who says "trying to get the app approved for release on the Apple App Store. But that will be an adventure for another day." https://servalpaul.blogspot.com/2018/11/serval-chat-ios-port... 2) This wasn't planned out months in advance. This is a protest that is organically sprouting up. Nobody wants to add jailb…

3) I think the worry is China forcing Apple to produce this info (list of HK users with said app installed), not what Apple themselves would do with it. Maybe not a dealbreaker, but something to consider...

I think China getting that information from Apple is sort of a second-order concern at this point. In a more stable situation, yeah, you don't want the police to have a reason to knock on your door. When you're gearing up to go protest in public and the cops are dropping tear gas on everybody, those sorts of lists are less important. Not saying that it doesn't matter, but there is no such thing as absolute security, it's a series of tradeoffs.

Re: Hong Kong protestors using Bridgefy's Bluetooth-based mesh network messaging app

#129

Post by newscracker »

jorgeribs wrote: post #48
bitcurious wrote: post #18

I just tried the app via the US App Store and it requires you to verify through SMS before use. This means that it’s neither anonymous nor fit for use in a disaster zone. Good example of software that would be better if open source.

Hi! You can skip the SMS verification step, which is how thousands of people have used it after earthquakes and hurricanes :) we also have an SDK so that developer can create their own app and make it work however they want.

Considering what others have described here to skip verification, you have used a dark pattern to force users to resort to SMS verification, endangering all those thousands of users you/your company claimed have downloaded the app in Hong Kong. This dark pattern would also inhibit or reduce usage during natural disasters unless you place a “Skip Verification” button that’s as prominent as the one for SMS verification. You could explain to the user the benefits or disadvantages of both on the same screen.

Having seen FireChat, another closed source mesh network app that allows people to sign up without giving a phone number, there’s no reason for me to recommend your app or even for me to try it.

Re: Hong Kong protestors using Bridgefy's Bluetooth-based mesh network messaging app

#130

Post by cwyers »

newscracker wrote: post #126
kspacewalk2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Addresses can be made non-identifying.

Then why hasn’t that happened with Signal yet? Being open source may not have much of a correlation on how features change for such apps.

Signal is really three things with the same name (four or five, if you count the foundation and/or the LLC):

1) The Signal protocol, which can have multiple implementations (WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger and Skype all use it), 2) The Signal client and server, which are open source, and 3) The Signal service operated by Signal Messenger, LLC.

You can use either 1 or 2 to implement a system that doesn't require a phone number to use. Wire, for instance, is a messenger that has adopted parts of the Signal protocol and the Signal source code. [https://github.com/wireapp/proteus/blob/develop/src/internal...]

What you can't do is change how the Signal servers operated by Signal Messenger are operated, or refer to your own client/server using Signal trademarks.

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