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Wikipedia Is Now a Brave Verified Publisher

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Re: Wikipedia Is Now a Brave Verified Publisher

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like my post fell off the front page, so the hashtag link doesn't work. :/ Copy-pasting my comment here: Looking into this only briefly, it didn't take long to find a lot of very questionable decisions made by Brave: 1. They're positioning themselves as both an advertiser and a privacy advocate[1], which strikes me as more of a strategy for bootstrapping revenue than a trustworthy moral position. The entire…

Too many words, I'll use fewer. 1. Ad spend last year was over $100M in the US alone, ~$300M globally. Heading toward $1T globally. Users subscribing or paying out of goodwill won't cover this if we block it all and corner the market. We are doing anonymous and private ads (also donations and subscriptions, note well), no conflict with user in data or revenue share. Read my comments here, e.g., https://news.ycombinat…

1. If you're saying that it's impossible to make money without accepting money from funders whose motivations conflict with users', that just means that a for-profit organization is not the way to build a browser that serves users.

A "conflict of interest" doesn't necessarily imply that you've done anything wrong yet, it merely says that the incentives are strongly in favor of you doing something wrong. In my experience, that means that when the cards are on the table you will do the wrong thing, not because you're a bad person or anything, but because you don't want to give up your funding and business.

It may just be that making a lot of money and serving users are fundamentally incompatible. And anyone who actually wants to prioritize serving users over making a lot of money needs to at least be open to that possibility. I really hope they aren't incompatible, for both your sake and mine--I'd like to be rich as much as anyone.

2. This is a non-reason. Domain ownership is already verified by certificate authorities, and there's no reason anyone should trust your centralized authority more than CAs centralized authority. In the very best case, where you do exactly what you're claiming you're going to do and allow other oracles, you've pointlessly reinvented CAs. But you haven't gotten there yet, so right now it just looks like you've created a CA system where you're the only CA, which is objectively worse.

If you want a blockchain solution, fixing the bugs in Namecoin[1] would be a start, although admittedly that technology has yet to play out in practice. It's possible a similar system could be implemented on top of BAT. The difficulty here is that you'd be reinventing the DNS system in tandem.

Let's be clear here, your TOS says you can censor people based on subjective criteria.[2] So if you claim "we do not censor", why don't you say that where it's legally binding?

3. So if you're arguing volatility is the issue, why didn't you just use USD? If you needed funding--again, that's your problem, not one users care about. You don't get a free pass on technology decisions that harm users just because they helped you get funding.

I am genuinely sad that corporations have proven themselves untrustworthy so many times that I can't trust you. As I've said elsewhere, you seem like a decent person with good intentions.

[1] https://www.namecoin.org/

[2] "As a condition of use, you promise not to use the Service for any purpose that is prohibited by the Terms of Use. For purposes of the Terms of Use, the term “Content” includes, without limitation, any information, data, text, photographs, videos, software, scripts, graphics, and interactive features generated, provided, or otherwise made accessible on or through the Service. By way of example, and not as a limitation, you shall not (and shall not permit any third party to) take any action (including contributing any Content) that: would constitute a violation of any applicable law, rule or regulation; infringes any intellectual property or other right of any other person or entity; is threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, libelous, deceptive, fraudulent, invasive of another’s privacy, tortious, obscene, offensive, or profane; constitutes unauthorized or unsolicited advertising, junk or bulk e-mail; contains software viruses or any other similar computer codes, files, or programs; or impersonates any person or entity." -- quoted from https://brave.com/terms-of-use/ , note that later it says, "Brave may terminate your access to all or any part of the Service at any time if you fail to comply with these Terms of Use, which may result in the forfeiture and destruction of all information associated with your account."

Re: Wikipedia Is Now a Brave Verified Publisher

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, nothing in my post is false. I knew how your ad model works when I wrote that post. You're in bed with advertisers because you're taking money from them and providing them a service. Look, I don't have anything against you personally. I'm sure you're a good, kind person with pure intentions. But tracking or not, advertising is not the way to fund a browser that serves users. You'll always be beholden to advertise…

You did not justify “in bed with” or even define it usefully. My reply said we don’t track, and if you know about us, you also know we give the larger revenue share to the user. And ads are opt in per user, so “in bed with” better fits our relationship with our users. Any browser requires high trust, but most of the bigs have not stopped tracking, as they have been built or coopted by ad companies. Who is in bed with…

> You did not justify “in bed with” or even define it usefully. My reply said we don’t track, and if you know about us, you also know we give the larger revenue share to the user. And ads are opt in per user, so “in bed with” better fits our relationship with our users.

You said in your other post to me:

"Ad spend last year was over $100M in the US alone, ~$300M globally. Heading toward $1T globally. Users subscribing or paying out of goodwill won't cover this if we block it all and corner the market."

So you're saying that most of your funding comes from advertisers, not from users. By the design of your business model you've chosen to be more in bed with advertisers than with users.

What I quoted also implies that you had to do that, because you couldn't get the funding you wanted otherwise. But I'm saying you never have to do anything. You chose this business model, not because it served users, but because it makes you money. I'm sure your intentions are good, that you think that having that money will allow you to serve users. But I'm saying that conflicts of interest this fundamental rarely play out as intended.

> Any browser requires high trust, but most of the bigs have not stopped tracking, as they have been built or coopted by ad companies. Who is in bed with whom?

This is a perfect solution fallacy. I totally agree that there's no major browser that hasn't been coopted by advertisers to some extent (except maybe GNU Icecat). This is a big criticism I have of Mozilla, for example, but at least they admit there's a problem and try to take steps to prevent it--although I'll reiterate: they're not enough as far as I am concerned. So far, in this thread, you have yet to even admit that there is a problem, which means you can't possibly take steps to mitigate it.

Re: Wikipedia Is Now a Brave Verified Publisher

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, nothing in my post is false. I knew how your ad model works when I wrote that post. You're in bed with advertisers because you're taking money from them and providing them a service. Look, I don't have anything against you personally. I'm sure you're a good, kind person with pure intentions. But tracking or not, advertising is not the way to fund a browser that serves users. You'll always be beholden to advertise…

You did not justify “in bed with” or even define it usefully. My reply said we don’t track, and if you know about us, you also know we give the larger revenue share to the user. And ads are opt in per user, so “in bed with” better fits our relationship with our users. Any browser requires high trust, but most of the bigs have not stopped tracking, as they have been built or coopted by ad companies. Who is in bed with…

With regards to your link, that's very well-written and I agree with almost everything you said in that link. This is particularly important to remember:

"The unfortunate consequence is that software vendors — including browser vendors — must not be blindly trusted. Not because such vendors don’t want to protect user privacy. Rather, because a law might force vendors to secretly violate their own principles and do things they don’t want to do."

And that doesn't just apply to the NSA forcing you to backdoor your own software under threat of arrest. It also applies to major sources of funding forcing you to backdoor your own software under threat of defunding you.

I want a browser made by people who would shut down their business rather than compromise users. And so far in this conversation, it doesn't even sound like you've considered that possibility or believe it could happen, so how can we trust that you'd do that?

Re: Wikipedia Is Now a Brave Verified Publisher

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too many words, I'll use fewer. 1. Ad spend last year was over $100M in the US alone, ~$300M globally. Heading toward $1T globally. Users subscribing or paying out of goodwill won't cover this if we block it all and corner the market. We are doing anonymous and private ads (also donations and subscriptions, note well), no conflict with user in data or revenue share. Read my comments here, e.g., https://news.ycombinat…

1. If you're saying that it's impossible to make money without accepting money from funders whose motivations conflict with users', that just means that a for-profit organization is not the way to build a browser that serves users. A "conflict of interest" doesn't necessarily imply that you've done anything wrong yet, it merely says that the incentives are strongly in favor of you doing something wrong. In my experie…

I will be brief, as replies growing ever longer is a bad condition. Also I do not want to argue about imponderables.

I’m aware of Namecoin, whose Wikipedia page says

“A 2015 study found that of the 120,000 domain names registered on Namecoin, only 28 were in use.[12]

Onename co-founder Muneeb Ali on 12 September 2015 at the Blockstack Summit 2015 stated that the Namecoin network is not decentralized and the mining group Discus Fish controls 60-70% of its hashing power.”

I was at the 2015 Blockstack Summit and can vouch.

I already noted we will distribute if not decentralize publishers verification. Namecoin can’t do YouTube or other UGC accounts, as we do. Handshake might pan out for domains, we are in touch. In our current Gemini phase we have to comply with laws, but we won’t kick out or unverify a site or channel based on legal content it hosts. Our rep would be trashed if we did.

This may be where we part company. I’m well aware of conflicts of interest and the difference between intentions and outcomes from Mozilla and prior experience. Brave nevertheless has put its reputation at stake, with open source and incremental work to decentralize as much as possible. We may fail for lots of reasons, but going bad and trying to steal from our users is highly unlikely. It would be quickly defeated. This is by design.

Re: Wikipedia Is Now a Brave Verified Publisher

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did not justify “in bed with” or even define it usefully. My reply said we don’t track, and if you know about us, you also know we give the larger revenue share to the user. And ads are opt in per user, so “in bed with” better fits our relationship with our users. Any browser requires high trust, but most of the bigs have not stopped tracking, as they have been built or coopted by ad companies. Who is in bed with…

With regards to your link, that's very well-written and I agree with almost everything you said in that link. This is particularly important to remember: "The unfortunate consequence is that software vendors — including browser vendors — must not be blindly trusted. Not because such vendors don’t want to protect user privacy. Rather, because a law might force vendors to secretly violate their own principles and do th…

I would shut down Brave rather than backdoor our open source. Can you imagine? Note: I'd do this on moral grounds, but even if I were some kind of toady to the state, I'm not stupid. The back door would be discovered and I'd be strictly worse off then. It wouldn't pay for the state actor, either.

Re: Wikipedia Is Now a Brave Verified Publisher

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did not justify “in bed with” or even define it usefully. My reply said we don’t track, and if you know about us, you also know we give the larger revenue share to the user. And ads are opt in per user, so “in bed with” better fits our relationship with our users. Any browser requires high trust, but most of the bigs have not stopped tracking, as they have been built or coopted by ad companies. Who is in bed with…

> You did not justify “in bed with” or even define it usefully. My reply said we don’t track, and if you know about us, you also know we give the larger revenue share to the user. And ads are opt in per user, so “in bed with” better fits our relationship with our users. You said in your other post to me: "Ad spend last year was over $100M in the US alone, ~$300M globally. Heading toward $1T globally. Users subscribin…

> This is a perfect solution fallacy.

No Sir -- not from me, anywhere in anything I ever wrote. Browsers are imperfect. For one thing they have 0days.

Brave is imperfect too.

Before we correspond more, please tell me how you took my big-picture realpolitik point about western ad powers acquiring or otherwise getting control over 3 of 4 top browsers as having anything to do with perfect vs. good?

Re: Wikipedia Is Now a Brave Verified Publisher

#357
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you at Mozilla? That contract was referenced in a bug long ago. I'm not sure it can be enforced, given how Google's revamped Analytics 360 works.

No I'm not. I'd imagine that a contract would be enforced by both parties respecting it, especially given that there's not that much to win for Google, and much to lose if, say, an employee would leak that it was being violated.

Let's see the contract and its term, if not hear from Google that it is in effect. Sorry, but reputable blockers block GA because it is now tied into Google's overall ads/data business and they say as much in touting it, in their privacy policy even with its carve-outs, and in others' experience with it.

For Mozilla to use GA instead of self-hosted Matomo is odd to me as a founder of mozilla.org (none are left at Mozilla now, FYI). We do the latter at Brave. Is it just for convenience?

Re: Wikipedia Is Now a Brave Verified Publisher

#358
post #209

Since Brave is usually roasted around here, I just want to say thanks to the devs. I'm a Brave user and the experience is fantastic. Two things: I was a Chrome user for many years, so switching to Brave was not traumatic at all (same user experience, plugin's compatibility) and also ad blockers work as expected. I've never pay attention to the included ad solution. Im not interested on it. Im strictly speaking as an…

Did they fix the issue of pocketing the money on behalf of content creators who are not registered to Brave?

We never pocketed the money. In past years we gave out grants to users, who could send their tokens to unverified creators, and we would hold tokens in settlement awaiting those creators sooner or later signing up. We are still holding.

We switched over the end of last year to have your browser hold for 90 days, retrying each month to reconcile anonymously in case the creator verified. After that the tokens go back into the browser wallet, or if you have signed up with Uphold to put in or take out your tokens, into your BAT card at Uphold.

Re: Wikipedia Is Now a Brave Verified Publisher

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://basicattentiontoken.org/faq/#why-not-bitcoin

That explains why they can't use Bitcoin, but it doesn't explain why they can't use USD + a database.

USD does not work in all regions, believe it or not. Moreover it cannot be sent without an intermediary that is heavily licensed and regulated. Contrary to maximalists, we do aim in our Apollo phase for BAT moving on-blockchain with anonymity and low fees. Current blockchains and USD do neither

Re: Wikipedia Is Now a Brave Verified Publisher

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://basicattentiontoken.org/faq/#why-not-bitcoin

This explanation shows a painfully shallow understanding of Bitcoin, if not an intentional bias. Bitcoin is capable of doing everything Brave would need, and they've been shown how to accomplish their goals multiple times by numerous disparate parties. I'm increasingly convinced Brave's leadership is opposed to the idea of self-determination, and is playing politics by making up these kinds of excuses.

We built on Bitcoin from 2016 onward, and shut it down in favor of BAT in 2017 fall. Fees in 2017 hit 90% for users doing small buys to goodwill-donate, confirmation times went to days, and we had no moneybags funding grants to users. Drive by maximalists told us to “use LN” or (when reminded it was not usable) “wait for LN”. That solved nothing then and solves nothing much even now.

Most of the 250K creators at https://batgrowth.com/ do not want any crypto, never mind bitcoin. Running an LN node looks like it will require licensing, and in any case LN is effectively custodial in tying up coin. Our model is to pay users, not tie up their coins keeping a few channels open to a relative handful of sites.

Bootstrapping in the face of Metcalfe’s Law is hard enough without obviously bad advice and then ill will from maximalists.

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