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NPM Bans Terminal Ads

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Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#51
post #8

The rationale from the author of the package who adding advertising is enlightening and definitely worth reading. https://feross.org/funding-experiment-recap/

That is worth reading, and he makes some great points, but there’s a jarring shift in it. At the start he talks about it in terms of:

I would love to find a way to help maintainers capture at least a bit of the value we create so that we can happily continue to write new features, fix bugs, answer user questions, improve documentation, and release innovative new software.

But after it was received badly, he switches to:

Folks who contribute nothing don’t get a seat at the table. Rich Hickey said it best in Open Source is Not About You:

Which seems contrary. Rich Hickey’s post is that open source is built for oneself (one person or one company) and then released to the world in whatever state it was used internally. Other people aren't paying, so they don't get a say. The opening position is that open source is created and maintained for the benefit of others.

It can be either, neither, or both for different projects, sure, but to suggest that people take up maintaining unseen infrastructure code so that they can answer user questions and write documentation and code new features to help people and also don’t no have to listen to anything those people say because it’s done for one’s self and not about those people at all.. which is it?

People who tidy the commons for the council are employees, and do what they're told. People who tidy the commons of their on volunteer effort get to choose what to do but don't get to stick a price tag on it. If you do it for yourself on your terms, you don’t get anyone’s money. If you do it for others and want their money, it’s a job but you have to be controlled by what they want because it’s a job.

If you do it for guilt and charity, who gets to thrive off charity work in other fields?

If you went to a local park and found someone had picked some poison ivy, and left an advert there instead, would you approve?

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#52
post #32
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually curious: what exactly does the "F" mean to you?

Thanks for engaging me on this, genuinely appreciate it amidst the torrent of downvotes (would be interested to hear more of the opinions of those who downvoted me). Yeah, good question and something I've been wrestling with a lot myself. I used to think "free" meant monetarily free, but lately (in the last few years, call it aging, I dunno), I've started to subscribe to the notion of "free" as championed by the Free…

I wish there'd be a better way to differentiate free (as in freedom) software and free (as in monetary cost).

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#53

See also: GNU parallel showing a nag for being cited in papers. https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/parallel.git/tree/src/para...

huh .. that's interesting. I wonder what RMS's take on that is. I know he worked on a project at one time that would let readers buy articles anonymously. I don't think it got anywhere though.

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#54
post #27
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hadn't heard of Tidelift before until recently, and I don't see it mentioned here in the discussion. Is this the kind of thing you'd like to see? https://tidelift.com/ Something has to be done to ensure that Open Source which plays a vital role in our business ecosystems remains sustainable. There are real business implications if some package we all depend on is under-funded and implodes (we can all name well-know…

OSS is sustainable. I don’t like how tidelift seems to present a partial story. If there some OSS crisis that I’m not aware of? Separately, just because something is an approach doesn’t mean it’s worth talking about.

It's sustainable if you consider important code that we all rely on is being maintained by developers working for free and constantly burning out. Without proper support these developers will move on and stuff is going to get left behind. I mean, just look at OpenSSL a few years ago, almost everything is like that.

It's sustainable if you accept OSS is always going to have an incalculable maintainer churn rate.

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Adware is malware This seems like an overreaction. Are HN ads (those links to YC company jobs) malware? According to feross, the ads were just static hardcoded messages. I find it distasteful, but I don't see how it's "malware".

The entire advertising industry is scum. I worked in it for two years and wish I never did. That's a sin I now atone for by discouraging younger developers from making the same mistake, using the harshest language I think dang will permit. It doesn't matter if there is no telemetry (and if this were to be normalized, there would eventually be telemetry. Such are the economic incentives in the ad industry. When it's p…

You're too absolutist. How is advertising inherently contrary contrary to the interests of anybody subjected to it? How would you find about a single product people are trying to sell if they don't advertise?

E.g. would we better off if we couldn't advertise that free software alternatives exist?

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#57
I’m hoping that with GitHub getting into the donation game, things will get a little better for funding open source.

This is just the symptom.

It’s really difficult to convince people to part with just $100 a year to fund something critical to our org. I do fund some projects, but there are plenty of others that I use regularly that I don’t fund monthly

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#58
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That reasoning makes sense at first. Until you consider the fact that critical infrastructure depends on underfunded open source projects that sometimes have trouble staying afloat. NTP is the classic example of the problem. https://www.infoworld.com/article/3144546/time-is-running-ou... http://www.ntp.org/

If they depend upon it then there are two obvious solutions - provide it doing the work themselves or fund it.

Unfortunately people pick the third option that is dissing the developer who has made that piece of code for trying to get funding for the work.

Re: NPM Bans Terminal Ads

#60
post #50
post #11

While I don't particularly like the idea of stuffing ads into npm logs, I don't have the same visceral negative reaction that many people have in these HN threads on this topic. The overwhelming majority of the people complaining about this are well-paid tech workers writing code for well-funded companies that profit off of open source code without providing any reciprocal value to the open source projects in return.…

>, why is it so alarming to think that these maintainers might think of a clever idea like this to make a couple thousand bucks? [...] But instead of attacking the guy for trying, I really wish the discussion were focussed on how the community of open-source consumers can contribute back to the open source ecosystem You're (possibly unintentionally) distorting/diverting the issue. Nobody is criticizing open source ma…

I agree with the sentiment that shady things shouldn't be excused because "I'm an open source developer and I need money". You have a point there.

Although:

> decides to embed advertising such as "Try LINODE for 30 days!" in "README.md"

Are you trying to say that this is also not acceptable? Our company sponsors a few open source npm projects, and all of the projects we sponsor have our logo in the README.md - is that really not socially acceptable?

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