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Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

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Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#31

Post by kbenson »

askmike wrote: post #9
vnorilo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western countries may not always live up to ideals with the pressures of migration, but it is disingenous to compare immigrants to a resident minority. Please note that in EU at least, a lot of the conflict is about who counts as an asylum seeker and who must immigrate normally.

> Western countries may not always live up to ideals with the pressures of migration, but it is disingenous to compare immigrants to a resident minority That's just one example that popped into my head. I can pick another example if you don't like this one. How about how black people are treated in the US? Not all of them are in concentration camps, but many of them are in jail for non violent "crimes" (for example f…

If you truly want to make it better, the solution is not to bring it up in response to external criticisms, where it lessens the impact of both, but in context where it can be assessed in semi-isolation, to preserve forward momentum of both subjects.

What you've done here, whether on purpose or accident, is partake in a variant of whataboutism. The only people it helps are those against progress in both situations.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#32

Post by simonh »

askmike wrote: post #26
simonh wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what detention means, right? I'm not sure what point of mine you are referring to.

> however they have access to legal due process and their rights are guaranteed in law. There certainly have been abuses and violations, but these have frequently been reported in the medial and successfully challenged in courts of law. This point! According the the link in practise they do not have the ability to leave. So I guess that's the standard "we" should hold "them" to? > The point is, it doesn't get them of…

>According the the link in practise they do not have the ability to leave...

That's a rally weird and kind of irrelevant technical point. In that specific case 'leave' means pay for their own flight back to their own country, instead of being deported there by the US government. It does not mean simply walk out of the detention centre. They are in violation of US law and in US custody. The argument is about their humane and fair treatment.

I'm in no way saying the western system is perfect, it's been terribly abused, and still is. My point is that independent journalism, an informed public and independent judicial review are powerful things and do make a difference. It is entirely morally consistent to both argue for fair treatment of people in the west, and advocate it for people in China.

As for political systems, they are created by people. When I say 'China' or 'The Chinese Government' I mean the individuals in power in the Chinese government. They are accountable.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#33

Post by askmike »

_iyig wrote: post #18
askmike wrote: post #4

I agree that the things described are very bad. But I do want to point that many western democratic governments do things that might be just as bad (are the Uyghur Muslims treated worse than immigrants in many western places like US / EU / AUS?). Though I have to admit I'm not well informed on exactly what type of "democracy" they are after. If you get the majority of people to not care about what happens to a minori…

>(are the Uyghur Muslims treated worse than immigrants in many western places like US / EU / AUS?) This question would be simpler to answer if China allowed foreign reporters access to the camps, cities, and provinces where (millions of) Uyghur Muslims are held, such as Xinjiang. Could you imagine if Chinese reporters were denied to access to, for example, the state of Texas? What if plainclothes Texas Rangers stalke…

> That’s the type of media blackout which I understand is currently imposed on Xinjiang.

I personally think the UN human rights council is at least as important, as the international media's role in fixing human rights problems is debatable. In that light:

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/jan/04/trump-administra...

as the article states:

> “They are sending a very dangerous message to other countries: that if you don’t cooperate with UN experts they will just go away. That’s a serious setback to the system created after World War II to ensure that domestic human rights violations could no longer be seen as an internal matter,” Dakwar said.

Maybe China received this message loud and clear?

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#34

Post by askmike »

kbenson wrote: post #31
askmike wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Western countries may not always live up to ideals with the pressures of migration, but it is disingenous to compare immigrants to a resident minority That's just one example that popped into my head. I can pick another example if you don't like this one. How about how black people are treated in the US? Not all of them are in concentration camps, but many of them are in jail for non violent "crimes" (for example f…

If you truly want to make it better, the solution is not to bring it up in response to external criticisms, where it lessens the impact of both, but in context where it can be assessed in semi-isolation, to preserve forward momentum of both subjects. What you've done here, whether on purpose or accident, is partake in a variant of whataboutism. The only people it helps are those against progress in both situations.

I think that more people should understand that shitty people do shitty things. And they when they do they should be held accountable. We get a lot closer to fixing them.

I'm just highlighting endless bikeshedding, imo human right violations just don't always have very much to do with the political system of a country. As such changing the political system in a country doesn't make all the human right violations magically disappear.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#35

Post by Animats »

Legislative bodies is in trouble. Britain seems to have just had a coup. Look at how Boris Johnson became Prime Minister, not by popular election but by vote of Conservative Party members only. And now he's suspending Parliament.

The problems of the US Congress are well known. It used to run the country. Now it barely does anything.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#36

Post by askmike »

nothrabannosir wrote: post #28
askmike wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Western countries may not always live up to ideals with the pressures of migration, but it is disingenous to compare immigrants to a resident minority That's just one example that popped into my head. I can pick another example if you don't like this one. How about how black people are treated in the US? Not all of them are in concentration camps, but many of them are in jail for non violent "crimes" (for example f…

> I'm not defending China, I'm just saying many countries do terrible things - also democratic ones (sometimes it's the goverment, sometimes it's the people). Great, then you can write a blog post about that and post it to HN and we’ll discuss those atrocities on that post. Meanwhile let’s stay on topic here, and discuss an article written by a HK citizen to Chinese citizens about China. This is whataboutism, a class…

On topic:

He wants a different political system (democratic) and his arguments are that the current one did many bad things. My point is that changing the political system doesn't change the bad things he's talking about. As we can clearly see in many democratic systems in the world.

I don't think I'll write a blogpost. Given the initial responses of my current comments I am sure it would get downvoted anyway.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#37

Post by avocado4 »

Animats wrote: post #35

Legislative bodies is in trouble. Britain seems to have just had a coup. Look at how Boris Johnson became Prime Minister, not by popular election but by vote of Conservative Party members only. And now he's suspending Parliament. The problems of the US Congress are well known. It used to run the country. Now it barely does anything.

It's intellectually dishonest to say that Congress barely does anything.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#38

Post by nothrabannosir »

coldtea wrote: post #25
jahewson wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of empty, backwards argument is known as a “whataboutism” and is commonly seen in propaganda. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

It's also known as "putting things in perspective" and is commonly seen in rational, non-partisan, assessment of events... People thinking (or pretending to think) their "shit doesn't smell" criticize only (or mainly) the other side, for things their side does as well, and demonize the Other, down to supporting policy implications, sometimes down to sanctions and even war. And when someone points to their own shit th…

It’s a fine line between the two, and because of how easily they are confounded the onus is on the speaker to unequivocally avoid whataboutism. Make it very clear how the comparison adds to the discussion of the topic at hand, how it helps move it forward, how the newfound perspective helps other participants come to different conclusions about the original topic and statements.

None of which were achieved here. The criticisms of censorship, mistreatment of minorities, impunity of the CCP and comparisons to WWII through title headers are as valid after this point was raised as before. Therefore, this didn’t put anything in perspective: it was just plain old whataboutism.

Or, to put your argument in perspective: if these points were raised about the NSDAP back in 1930s, would it be equally justified to “put things in perspective” by similarly drawing attention to American misdeeds?

If you can use your argument to justify pretty much anything, it’s not a very strong argument.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#39

Post by panny »

normalhuman wrote: post #30
askmike wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Western countries may not always live up to ideals with the pressures of migration, but it is disingenous to compare immigrants to a resident minority That's just one example that popped into my head. I can pick another example if you don't like this one. How about how black people are treated in the US? Not all of them are in concentration camps, but many of them are in jail for non violent "crimes" (for example f…

Nothing is perfect, but dictatorship is worse. I live close what remains of the Berlin wall. People risked their lives to jump it and escape to the democratic side. Nobody ever wanted to escape the democratic side and jump in the other direction. Why? I love China and I have a lot of empathy for the Chinese people. You have an amazing and ancient culture and I hope that you can release yourselves from oppression, gai…

Russia is a democracy. The US was a democracy when it genocided the native Americans. askmike is right. Democracy alone won't help Hong Kong. China will not stop. Pacifist Hong Kong will be crushed, regardless the form of government.

>Nobody ever wanted to escape the democratic side and jump in the other direction. Why?

You've never heard of James Dresnok. Why?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5QZvOqlJM

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#40

Post by simonh »

avocado4 wrote: post #37
Animats wrote: post #35

Legislative bodies is in trouble. Britain seems to have just had a coup. Look at how Boris Johnson became Prime Minister, not by popular election but by vote of Conservative Party members only. And now he's suspending Parliament. The problems of the US Congress are well known. It used to run the country. Now it barely does anything.

It's intellectually dishonest to say that Congress barely does anything.

I think the argument is clear. A few people in the West have found ways to abuse the political system in a few marginal ways and get away with it for limited periods until independent journalism, public opinion and the courts stop them.

However they get away with it for a while. Therefore it's ok to have an entire political system in China, constructed entirely out of the abuse or elimination of the rights of it's people, with no way to challenge their leaders or hold them accountable.

I make no claims for the validity of the argument.

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