Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy • Hacker News Board

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#21

Post by askmike » Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 7:01 AM UTC

jahewson wrote: post #15

askmike wrote: post #4

I agree that the things described are very bad. But I do want to point that many western democratic governments do things that might be just as bad (are the Uyghur Muslims treated worse than immigrants in many western places like US / EU / AUS?). Though I have to admit I'm not well informed on exactly what type of "democracy" they are after. If you get the majority of people to not care about what happens to a minori…

This kind of empty, backwards argument is known as a “whataboutism” and is commonly seen in propaganda. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

I don't agree, that's part of an "us vs them" debate. I am saying that I don't think China's bad things have anything to do with them not being democratic. As we can see similar things happening in democratic countries.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#22

Post by nudpiedo » Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 7:02 AM UTC

> Fine you say, you may not care for some religious leaders, as they are such a tiny percentage of the population.

This is a huge difference between western and eastern thinking. Group rights vs individual rights. Here in western culture we typically tried to develop a culture on which each single individual rights should be respected above the group if the case was necessary whereas Asian societies traditionally have put groups (or families) above individual rights and wishes.

And for those reasons we had several wars against fascism, communism and other totalitarian ideologies. Currently in the west we also have lobbies which try to segregate population in smaller groups and lobby against others, or communities as they say in the USA. I guess this herd behaviour is just part of human being's nature and this sort of events will be repeated forever.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#23

Post by simonh » Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 7:03 AM UTC

askmike wrote: post #12

simonh wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been abusive treatment of some illegal immigrants into some of these countries, particularly recently, but there had also been massive outcries about it. In almost every case the law and public opinion has stopped or prevented the worst mistreatment. The Australian detention centres are winding down, the separation of children from their families ordered by Trump was successfully challenged in court. Massiv…

> In almost every case the law and public opinion has stopped or prevented the worst mistreatment. The Australian detention centres are winding down, the separation of children from their families ordered by Trump was successfully challenged in court. Massive public protests and press coverage worked. That's just because the people care now. If people in mainland China start caring for that minority we'll see change…

>If people in mainland China start caring for that minority

People in China generally have no opinion on it, because they have no idea what is happening. Their media is thoroughly censored and controlled by the government and independent journalism is effectively illegal.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#24

Post by Mathnerd314 » Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 7:04 AM UTC

The author seems to have left off his name, but I assume the Chinese or HK government could easily obtain his name/address from the domain registrar. So if the extradition bill was passed he might join the many people he lists in prison.

But the bill was declared "dead", so I guess he's probably OK besides the possibility of masked thugs.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#25

Post by coldtea » Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 7:05 AM UTC

jahewson wrote: post #15

askmike wrote: post #4

I agree that the things described are very bad. But I do want to point that many western democratic governments do things that might be just as bad (are the Uyghur Muslims treated worse than immigrants in many western places like US / EU / AUS?). Though I have to admit I'm not well informed on exactly what type of "democracy" they are after. If you get the majority of people to not care about what happens to a minori…

This kind of empty, backwards argument is known as a “whataboutism” and is commonly seen in propaganda. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

It's also known as "putting things in perspective" and is commonly seen in rational, non-partisan, assessment of events...

People thinking (or pretending to think) their "shit doesn't smell" criticize only (or mainly) the other side, for things their side does as well, and demonize the Other, down to supporting policy implications, sometimes down to sanctions and even war.

And when someone points to their own shit they invoke "whataboutism" to continue to have their hands in the ears -- and they'd think unfair if they had the same policies/actions against them.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#26

Post by askmike » Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 7:05 AM UTC

simonh wrote: post #20

askmike wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just did a quick google search on the matter, and according to the top link[1] this is not possible in practise for people in "detention facilities" to leave them. [1]: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/immigrants-free-leave-dete... this is not

That's what detention means, right? I'm not sure what point of mine you are referring to.

> however they have access to legal due process and their rights are guaranteed in law. There certainly have been abuses and violations, but these have frequently been reported in the medial and successfully challenged in courts of law.

This point! According the the link in practise they do not have the ability to leave. So I guess that's the standard "we" should hold "them" to?

> The point is, it doesn't get them off the hook though.

I very much agree, but at the end of the day these choices were made by people - they should be held accountable. Don't hold a politicial system accountable.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#27

Post by roenxi » Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 7:09 AM UTC

askmike wrote: post #4

I agree that the things described are very bad. But I do want to point that many western democratic governments do things that might be just as bad (are the Uyghur Muslims treated worse than immigrants in many western places like US / EU / AUS?). Though I have to admit I'm not well informed on exactly what type of "democracy" they are after. If you get the majority of people to not care about what happens to a minori…

> are the Uyghur Muslims treated worse than immigrants in many western places like US / EU / AUS?

Yes, obviously. The immigrants are choosing to travel to the US / EU / AUS. Indeed, the west has a proud history of skimming the best and brightest from China because they'd rather live somewhere else. I'll stand to be corrected but I don't think the West has anything comparable to the exodus of Hong Kongers basically fleeing for political reasons, we in Australia have acquired a lot of good people from that. Nobody sane is choosing to go to Xianjing and be treated as the Uyghurs.

The west can always be more welcoming and there are ugly moments; but there is a vast reserve of people who look at western countries, think 'I want to migrate there, it is better than where I am' and act upon their thoughts.

The premise here is just a bit weird. Nobody would migrate if they expected to be treated worse afterwards than if they'd just stayed home. If they really didn't like it they'd probably even turn around and return. On an absolute scale, we'd expect migrants to be very satisfied with their migration.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#28

Post by nothrabannosir » Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 7:10 AM UTC

askmike wrote: post #9

vnorilo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western countries may not always live up to ideals with the pressures of migration, but it is disingenous to compare immigrants to a resident minority. Please note that in EU at least, a lot of the conflict is about who counts as an asylum seeker and who must immigrate normally.

> Western countries may not always live up to ideals with the pressures of migration, but it is disingenous to compare immigrants to a resident minority That's just one example that popped into my head. I can pick another example if you don't like this one. How about how black people are treated in the US? Not all of them are in concentration camps, but many of them are in jail for non violent "crimes" (for example f…

> I'm not defending China, I'm just saying many countries do terrible things - also democratic ones (sometimes it's the goverment, sometimes it's the people).

Great, then you can write a blog post about that and post it to HN and we’ll discuss those atrocities on that post.

Meanwhile let’s stay on topic here, and discuss an article written by a HK citizen to Chinese citizens about China.

This is whataboutism, a classic conversational anti pattern that rears its head every single time China comes up on HN. It’s time to stop.

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#29

Post by askmike » Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 7:11 AM UTC

simonh wrote: post #23

askmike wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In almost every case the law and public opinion has stopped or prevented the worst mistreatment. The Australian detention centres are winding down, the separation of children from their families ordered by Trump was successfully challenged in court. Massive public protests and press coverage worked. That's just because the people care now. If people in mainland China start caring for that minority we'll see change…

>If people in mainland China start caring for that minority People in China generally have no opinion on it, because they have no idea what is happening. Their media is thoroughly censored and controlled by the government and independent journalism is effectively illegal.

I very much agree, this is what we should focus on (and the article does mention it).

Re: Drink Poison and Smile: How I Arrived at My Position of Pro-Democracy

#30

Post by normalhuman » Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 7:11 AM UTC

askmike wrote: post #9

vnorilo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western countries may not always live up to ideals with the pressures of migration, but it is disingenous to compare immigrants to a resident minority. Please note that in EU at least, a lot of the conflict is about who counts as an asylum seeker and who must immigrate normally.

> Western countries may not always live up to ideals with the pressures of migration, but it is disingenous to compare immigrants to a resident minority That's just one example that popped into my head. I can pick another example if you don't like this one. How about how black people are treated in the US? Not all of them are in concentration camps, but many of them are in jail for non violent "crimes" (for example f…

Nothing is perfect, but dictatorship is worse. I live close what remains of the Berlin wall. People risked their lives to jump it and escape to the democratic side. Nobody ever wanted to escape the democratic side and jump in the other direction. Why?

I love China and I have a lot of empathy for the Chinese people. You have an amazing and ancient culture and I hope that you can release yourselves from oppression, gain control of your own government as a people, prosper and be happy. We are all human beings, fuck the dictators.