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Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

huffingtonpost.com

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Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#61

Post by DanI-S »

js2 wrote: post #17
nopassrecover wrote: post #12

It's quite incredible that the Huffington Post posted the entire suicide note, particularly without a warning before it. In any case, I'm disturbed and outraged by the religious comments (ranging from wishing him well in the next phase of his life to saying how much God loves everyone even despite this to how he should forgive himself for the suicide). I thought respect was fundamental to religion.

I find proselytism highly disrespectful, yet it's common to Islam, Christianity, and historically Judaism. So I wouldn't say respect is fundamental to religion. I'm willing to give the commentators the benefit of the doubt though and assume they meant no disrespect. They'd probably be puzzled that anyone would find offense. Likely just a lack of exposure to other world views.

If you truly believe that an all-powerful, provenly vengeful supreme being wants you to personally spread his word to other people, it'd be a pretty bad idea to disobey.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#63

Post by maeon3 »

maxklein wrote: post #59

I've been pushing this idea: "A half-way house for suicidal people" Basically, if you're intending to commit suicide, you simply register for the project, and you get an all-expenses paid trip to Iraq, Afghanistan or Congo or some other really dangerous place. Spend two to three months helping people out, then feel free to commit suicide after that. No counseling, no attempt to talk you out of it, just a chance to be…

That's actually a great idea, because I think suicide has a "good of the collective" component to it. If you get rejected by your peers too much, ostracized and made to feel like a burden, your mind comes to the counter intuitive conclusion that the best way to ensure survival of your tribe is to die. Transplanting to an environment where your knowledge, ability and assets make you the most valuable and looked-up to person in the community might reverse feelings of rejection, ostracism and burden. This guy sounds like he has been rejected and ostracized for everything he did.

How ostracism causes depression in the laboratory. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-pain-of...

Ostracism (parents, girlfriend, job) causes depression, advanced depression causes suicide.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#64

Post by tptacek »

Confusion wrote: post #49
cookiecaper wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really get what you find disrespectful. Religious people generally believe that death is just a transition into a different plane. Why shouldn't a religious person be able to represent this in a comment? For the record, I read the note, and there's nothing in it that would make it inappropriate to leave a comment like "hope he is happy now" or whatever. Even if he asked people not to say this about his death,…

The problem here is that these things are not disrespectful for individual Christians to say, but they are inappropriate for Christians 'as a group' to say. The group should stfu and take a long hard look at their shortcomings as a group. You don't get to address this guys death in your religious way, if you don't address the religious ways that caused his death. If there is anyone in the position to get fundamentali…

Guilt by association is also handy when you don't want people to build mosques.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#65

Post by nate_meurer »

haploid wrote: post #57
kwoks wrote: post #32

You don't solve a problem by running away from it. This guy would have been very useful. He just needed counselling, attention and love to overcome the 'darkness and his ghosts'. But I don't think he was smart. He might have been clever in class and books but smart and brilliant people don't take their own lives. Brilliant is misused here. Anyway R.I.P.

Way to go HN. Instant downvote due to violent disagreement with an unpopular sentiment, not because the poster failed to add anything to the discussion. I don't think it's a failure to contribute to point out that rational people( and here we would presume that brilliant programmers are generally rational )would conduct their lives and solve their problems rationally. Physical trauma that occurred and ended 20 years…

Or perhaps the poster is being downvoted for the cruel and sloppy generalization, just like the one you just made. Exactly what does this contribute? Brilliant programmers are "presumed" to be rational; suicide is an irrational act; therefore... what?

"Physical trauma that occurred and ended 20 years ago is not the kind of thing a rational mind would choose suicide as a solution to."

Childhood sexual abuse is not the kind of thing that lends itself to a rational emotional state. If you read Bill's note, you'll observe that he recognized this fact, sought help, and obtained little. Maybe all he needed was someone like you to tell him to "get more rational".

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#66

Post by callmeed »

javert wrote: post #27
callmeed wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, it's not. I couldn't find the comments you mentioned, but the unfortunate fact is that many religious people are (at best) a shadow of what their beliefs are based on. I say this as a devout (but not fundamentalist) Christian. This entire article grieves me–including his descriptions of how his father treated him. No matter what choices my kids make, I could never treat them that way.

I mean no personal disrespect towards you, but you're implying that religions are themselves tolerant and respectful, and that people are flawed for not being able to "live up" to them. In reality, religions tend not to be tolerant and respectful, and criticizing people in general for not being "good enough" to live up to a religious standard is unfair.

Sorry, I didn't phrase it well and that's definitely not what I was implying.

I should really isolate my statement to Christianity. Jesus spent time with prostitutes, thieves and the marginalized. He likely drank alcohol. He wasn't concerned with wealth (other than warning against it's trappings). And, ironically, the people he was least respectful to were the religious leaders of the time.

Contrast that with the descriptions of Mr. Zeller's father and you can (hopefully) see the point I'm trying to make. His type are the only people I criticize—not because they don't live up to a standard but because (just like the leaders in Jesus' time)they create unnecessary standards for the purpose of controlling people or satisfying their own pride.

I hope that explains it better. As a side, I appreciate your approach. Religion can be a hot topic and I generally avoid it on HN. When it does come up, it's nice to share views in a respectful manner.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#67

Post by bigB »

kwoks wrote: post #32

You don't solve a problem by running away from it. This guy would have been very useful. He just needed counselling, attention and love to overcome the 'darkness and his ghosts'. But I don't think he was smart. He might have been clever in class and books but smart and brilliant people don't take their own lives. Brilliant is misused here. Anyway R.I.P.

Whilst I did not vote this down, I think that the whole smart/dumb thing is purely subjective. You may think its dumb to take your own life, but that is your own opinion, with no regard to the perspective of the person who it is actually happening to. I may think its dumb for a person to murder another innocent person, however I may also think its acceptable for a suffering cancer patient to take their own life. From the note that was left, it is clear he was suffering , and no matter how much help you "think" he would have gotten by taking another route, the fact is that he saw this as HIS way out. So why should we judge him by calling him dumb ( or at least not smart). You may have done things differently, but maybe you haven't felt the way he did either. Suicide is something that many people think can be avoided by other methods ie counseling, drugs ... but in reality some things you never "get over" or "solved", and denying them the right to take their own life is in my opinion paramount to torture.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#68

Post by callmeed »

Confusion wrote: post #49
cookiecaper wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really get what you find disrespectful. Religious people generally believe that death is just a transition into a different plane. Why shouldn't a religious person be able to represent this in a comment? For the record, I read the note, and there's nothing in it that would make it inappropriate to leave a comment like "hope he is happy now" or whatever. Even if he asked people not to say this about his death,…

The problem here is that these things are not disrespectful for individual Christians to say, but they are inappropriate for Christians 'as a group' to say. The group should stfu and take a long hard look at their shortcomings as a group. You don't get to address this guys death in your religious way, if you don't address the religious ways that caused his death. If there is anyone in the position to get fundamentali…

"If there is anyone in the position to get fundamentalist Christians to change their ways, it's the moderate Christians. But I don't hear them speak out against, on religious grounds, against the extreme ..."

Believe me, we try and if you came to my church you'd probably our pastor speak out against Mr. Zeller's type

I'm not sure what public debate you're referring to

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#69

Post by sp332 »

maeon3 wrote: post #63
maxklein wrote: post #59

I've been pushing this idea: "A half-way house for suicidal people" Basically, if you're intending to commit suicide, you simply register for the project, and you get an all-expenses paid trip to Iraq, Afghanistan or Congo or some other really dangerous place. Spend two to three months helping people out, then feel free to commit suicide after that. No counseling, no attempt to talk you out of it, just a chance to be…

That's actually a great idea, because I think suicide has a "good of the collective" component to it. If you get rejected by your peers too much, ostracized and made to feel like a burden, your mind comes to the counter intuitive conclusion that the best way to ensure survival of your tribe is to die. Transplanting to an environment where your knowledge, ability and assets make you the most valuable and looked-up to…

"Most valuable person in a community"? Xenophobia is pretty strong, especially in places with few resources or under oppression. Not many such places would welcome a meddling know-it-all outsider.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#70

Post by privacyguru »

This is a tough one to swallow. I never knew Bill personally but it did hit home as shared some common connections. Sucks. Sucks that its too late to help him. I won't comment on what I think should be done to that person but they deserve the worst and then some.

Someone posted a great quote in the comments on the story on Gizmodo: "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."

RIP Bill Zeller.

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