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A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

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Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#21

Post by zrm »

pdimitar wrote: post #10
sanbor wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With JS and cookies disabled and using a VPN you can get a decent browsing experience without tor slowness and blocks. At least your browsing is mixed with thousand people.

Sure. But lately I keep hearing that these users are implicitly under attack by constantly requiring them to fill CAPTCHAs.

Which is the advantage of implementing it by default in common browsers. Sites can afford to neglect the experience of the 1% of users who are using Tor but not the 80% of users who have installed the latest browsers.

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#22

Post by gnode »

earthboundkid wrote: post #12
kodablah wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you block it at the user-agent, sites will share data at the back-end to create a super-profile This needs a bit more technical detail. If you mean they'll combine IP + other fingerprinting, we can work on mitigation techniques there too. > I really don't see how this puts a dent [...] It does as it asks sites to more explicitly install something server side with their HTTP server instead of embed this one-line…

> This needs a bit more technical detail. If you mean they'll combine IP + other fingerprinting, we can work on mitigation techniques there too. Yeah, but instead of playing cat and mouse, just make it illegal and fine anyone caught violating it. Honestly, banning tracking would end the race to the bottom and be good for publishers and consumers. It probably won't affect FB & Google because they are too big to be dis…

> just make it illegal and fine anyone caught violating it.

I agree that this should happen. Unfortunately, this requires a revolutionary political movement which has so far failed to materialise. When there isn't adequate appetite from the rest of society for the protections you want, your solution has to be a technical one.

Maybe another way to kill the middlemen is to develop technology which undermines their business model, e.g. DTube; YaCy.

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#23

Post by yalogin »

jedimastert wrote: post #18
yalogin wrote: post #13

On top of all the things people mention here there is a huge vulnerability in Chrome that is undermining the whole thing. They mine data at the browser level and sell it to advertisers. This is in addition to what tons of advertisers do on individual web pages. So irrespective of what we do as long as Google and other browser manufacturers mine user data there is not much progress. I should add that Safari and Firefo…

> They mine data at the browser level and sell it to advertisers Go you have any actual proof of this?

Read Google's own proposal for privacy on the web. The first thing they talk about is differential privacy when collecting user data in chrome.

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#24

Post by wlesieutre »

tempguy9999 wrote: post #15
wlesieutre wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The negative side is that you can no longer see what sites are doing it, what they're doing, or block it in your browser

Do people 'see' what the sites are doing, and which? Does it matter if you just prevent it from happening? > The negative side is that you can no longer [...] block it in your browser If they're not doing it in your browser then you don't need to block it in your browser, because they're not doing it, because they're doing it in their back-end (which is not your browser) instead of in your browser (which is). Honestl…

> Do people 'see' what the sites are doing, and which? Does it matter if you just prevent it from happening?

Sorry if I've not been clear enough here. Let me explain my thought process.

uBlock Origin shows me this https://i.imgur.com/Vv2xyIL.png when I visit cnn.com.

In contrast, when I go to news.ycombinator.com, nothing is blocked. It gives me some idea of what companies respect my privacy and what companies are happy to sell my internet browsing history out to advertising networks and data brokers.

Yes, I'm blocking it as much as possible regardless, but I think it's still valuable to be aware of which sites are good actors and what sites are not. The little number on the uBO toolbar icon is a rough reminder of this.

> If they're not doing it in your browser then you don't need to block it in your browser, because they're not doing it, because they're doing it in their back-end (which is not your browser) instead of in your browser (which is).

The problem is not that the tracking is in my browser. The problem is the tracking.

If the tracking all happens server-side I have no idea what sites are tracking me and I can't do anything to prevent it. I can't even avoid it because I can't see what sites do it.

This is - from a perspective of not wanting to be tracked everywhere I go on the internet - worse than having javascript trackers on each page which my browser can choose to not run.

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#25

Post by DoctorOetker »

wlesieutre wrote: post #9
naasking wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> take that away and you'll see user data aggregated on the back-end instead OK, but at least then it's not polluting the user's experience and burning the user's CPU cycles. Still a strictly positive change IMO.

The negative side is that you can no longer see what sites are doing it, what they're doing, or block it in your browser

would you similarily advocate for all states to have meat space "rape halls" so at least we know what they are doing? so that we can locally prevent it in our state?

this does not make any sense.

The real problem is that Tim Berners Lee and co never intended HTML to be resistant to attacks on privacy, this was a project at CERN which is full of physicists and engineers in a collaborative effort. I presume physicists weren't busy datamining each others computer habits for profit. I can not fault them for not envisioning these problems in such a highly cushioned environment that was not representative of the wild world outside.

Ask yourself the following question: if you wonder if program X is leaking data over the internet, how do you go about finding this out? You search in the source code, or in the disassembly, for network function calls.

But if we talk about browsers, even clicking an anchor (URL) causes traffic, and is a potential leak of data. (my website and others collaborating with me can insert a user ID in the URL to each other...)

We need to redesign browsers from scratch, one can not black-box security.

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#26

Post by JohnFen »

Some of that seems OK, but a lot of it still seems unacceptable to me. Particularly, I disagree with these assertions:

> It is reasonable for the browser to relax its identity-sharing controls within that expanded notion, provided that the resulting identity scope is not too large and can be understood by the user.

> It may be OK for a site to learn the fact that a user has earned trust on another site

But, as always, my attitude about this sort of thing as that everything hinges on informed consent. If I have not given my explicit informed consent, then there is no sharing of data about me that is acceptable.

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#27

Post by tempguy9999 »

wlesieutre wrote: post #24
tempguy9999 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do people 'see' what the sites are doing, and which? Does it matter if you just prevent it from happening? > The negative side is that you can no longer [...] block it in your browser If they're not doing it in your browser then you don't need to block it in your browser, because they're not doing it, because they're doing it in their back-end (which is not your browser) instead of in your browser (which is). Honestl…

> Do people 'see' what the sites are doing, and which? Does it matter if you just prevent it from happening? Sorry if I've not been clear enough here. Let me explain my thought process. uBlock Origin shows me this https://i.imgur.com/Vv2xyIL.png when I visit cnn.com. In contrast, when I go to news.ycombinator.com, nothing is blocked. It gives me some idea of what companies respect my privacy and what companies are ha…

That was helpful.

The original comment that you seemed to be replying to was "Right now it's really convenient for advertisers to run an ad auction right in the user's web browser because all the context is there". I thought you were saying blocking that crap in your browser didn't make a difference.

I can't see your pic because I never allow JS outside of a VM.

If tracking is enabled in a browser it becomes vastly easier for them to assign unique cookies to follow you. OK, now then can do it with etags and browser fingerprinting - mitigating the latter is possible, I don't know about the former.

But this...

> If the tracking all happens server-side I have no idea what sites are tracking me and I can't do anything to prevent it.

...is dubious. Etags and fingerprints aside, tracking non-cooperating (cookie declining) browsers has to be harder. I agree with you about tracking being the problem though.

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#28

Post by wlesieutre »

tempguy9999 wrote: post #27
wlesieutre wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do people 'see' what the sites are doing, and which? Does it matter if you just prevent it from happening? Sorry if I've not been clear enough here. Let me explain my thought process. uBlock Origin shows me this https://i.imgur.com/Vv2xyIL.png when I visit cnn.com. In contrast, when I go to news.ycombinator.com, nothing is blocked. It gives me some idea of what companies respect my privacy and what companies are ha…

That was helpful. The original comment that you seemed to be replying to was "Right now it's really convenient for advertisers to run an ad auction right in the user's web browser because all the context is there". I thought you were saying blocking that crap in your browser didn't make a difference. I can't see your pic because I never allow JS outside of a VM. If tracking is enabled in a browser it becomes vastly e…

Harder on shared internet connections, for sure. But my apartment's internet connection is for the most part my own traffic, or guests who bring their phone over. Any traffic coming from that can be trivially tied to me.

I can use a VPN to hide my IP on most of my devices, except for when I'm trying to watch Netflix/Amazon/whatever. But I wish I didn't have to.

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#29

Post by tempguy9999 »

wlesieutre wrote: post #28
tempguy9999 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was helpful. The original comment that you seemed to be replying to was "Right now it's really convenient for advertisers to run an ad auction right in the user's web browser because all the context is there". I thought you were saying blocking that crap in your browser didn't make a difference. I can't see your pic because I never allow JS outside of a VM. If tracking is enabled in a browser it becomes vastly e…

Harder on shared internet connections, for sure. But my apartment's internet connection is for the most part my own traffic, or guests who bring their phone over. Any traffic coming from that can be trivially tied to me. I can use a VPN to hide my IP on most of my devices, except for when I'm trying to watch Netflix/Amazon/whatever. But I wish I didn't have to.

There's a big difference between your ISP knowing stuff and the river of scum that is advertising.

> But I wish I didn't have to.

One way or other you will always have to. Perhaps the most important way of destroying the ad industry online is to have an alternative means of funding sites. Maybe that would work.

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#30

Post by d10 »

eitland wrote: post #3
d10 wrote: post #2

A similar idea has occurred to me. I imagine a browser plugin that allows third-party cookies, but associates them per-domain visited. That is, the cookie that google analytics gets would be different when I'm visiting siteA.com vs siteB.com. I don't share the author's optimism that dialogue will result in "a new identity end state that works for everyone." I believe on-line privacy has to be protected through non-ne…

> That is, the cookie that google analytics gets would be different when I'm visiting siteA.com vs siteB.com. Isn't this part of what Firefox containers do?

I think of Firefox containers (and Chrome "people") as providing a little isolation, but not enough. If I browse HN in a container, I'm likely to follow links to a lot of different domains. I'd have to diligently select the right container each time.

I'm suggesting instead the browser never mixes a cookie I was assigned while browsing say nytimes.com with a cookie assigned while browsing washingtonpost.com. Even if I regularly browse these domains in my "news" container.

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