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A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

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Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#11

Post by kodablah »

ziggity wrote: post #4

> The identity "Me while I'm visiting nytimes.com" is distinct from the identity "Me while visiting cnn.com". Trying to solve this through purely technical means is futile. If you block it at the user-agent, sites will share data at the back-end to create a super-profile. Right now it's really convenient for advertisers to run an ad auction right in the user's web browser because all the context is there -- take that…

> If you block it at the user-agent, sites will share data at the back-end to create a super-profile

This needs a bit more technical detail. If you mean they'll combine IP + other fingerprinting, we can work on mitigation techniques there too.

> I really don't see how this puts a dent [...]

It does as it asks sites to more explicitly install something server side with their HTTP server instead of embed this one-line script tag. Changing from the browser being to store of cross-site identifiers to the backend has a chance to shine more light on the practice and increase the burden of tracking. It can make a real dent.

Regulation/enforcement are orthogonal to technical solutions. There are also varying levels of support for the former vs the latter and we shouldn't mix them nor should we blindly say "regulation and enforcement" without nuance. Many, including myself, are against most regulation/enforcement approaches due to implementation incompetence (intentions notwithstanding). But regardless of that debate, it shouldn't muddy the technical debate.

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#12

Post by earthboundkid »

kodablah wrote: post #11
ziggity wrote: post #4

> The identity "Me while I'm visiting nytimes.com" is distinct from the identity "Me while visiting cnn.com". Trying to solve this through purely technical means is futile. If you block it at the user-agent, sites will share data at the back-end to create a super-profile. Right now it's really convenient for advertisers to run an ad auction right in the user's web browser because all the context is there -- take that…

> If you block it at the user-agent, sites will share data at the back-end to create a super-profile This needs a bit more technical detail. If you mean they'll combine IP + other fingerprinting, we can work on mitigation techniques there too. > I really don't see how this puts a dent [...] It does as it asks sites to more explicitly install something server side with their HTTP server instead of embed this one-line…

> This needs a bit more technical detail. If you mean they'll combine IP + other fingerprinting, we can work on mitigation techniques there too.

Yeah, but instead of playing cat and mouse, just make it illegal and fine anyone caught violating it.

Honestly, banning tracking would end the race to the bottom and be good for publishers and consumers. It probably won't affect FB & Google because they are too big to be displaced. It may kill a bunch of middlemen, but they are leaches and should die anyway.

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#13

Post by yalogin »

On top of all the things people mention here there is a huge vulnerability in Chrome that is undermining the whole thing. They mine data at the browser level and sell it to advertisers. This is in addition to what tons of advertisers do on individual web pages. So irrespective of what we do as long as Google and other browser manufacturers mine user data there is not much progress.

I should add that Safari and Firefox (?) seem to be the only exception.

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#14

Post by Allower »

wlesieutre wrote: post #9
naasking wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> take that away and you'll see user data aggregated on the back-end instead OK, but at least then it's not polluting the user's experience and burning the user's CPU cycles. Still a strictly positive change IMO.

The negative side is that you can no longer see what sites are doing it, what they're doing, or block it in your browser

Doesn't this happen anyway?

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#15

Post by tempguy9999 »

wlesieutre wrote: post #9
naasking wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> take that away and you'll see user data aggregated on the back-end instead OK, but at least then it's not polluting the user's experience and burning the user's CPU cycles. Still a strictly positive change IMO.

The negative side is that you can no longer see what sites are doing it, what they're doing, or block it in your browser

Do people 'see' what the sites are doing, and which? Does it matter if you just prevent it from happening?

> The negative side is that you can no longer [...] block it in your browser

If they're not doing it in your browser then you don't need to block it in your browser, because they're not doing it, because they're doing it in their back-end (which is not your browser) instead of in your browser (which is).

Honestly, what are you trying to say?

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#16

Post by mpeg »

> Third Parties can be allowed access to a first-party identity

The problem with this, is that third parties can also be first parties and have their own data. The obvious examples are Facebook and Google today, when you use any service where they act as a third party, they may mix your identity with their first party id.

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#17

Post by pornel »

ziggity wrote: post #4

> The identity "Me while I'm visiting nytimes.com" is distinct from the identity "Me while visiting cnn.com". Trying to solve this through purely technical means is futile. If you block it at the user-agent, sites will share data at the back-end to create a super-profile. Right now it's really convenient for advertisers to run an ad auction right in the user's web browser because all the context is there -- take that…

Fortunately, they won't do it on the back-end. The ad industry has massive fraud problem, and the lack of trust prevents them from accepting traffic data they haven't seen themselves.

If you really force the industry to switch to "trust me, I've seen these users, now pay me" APIs on the back-end, it'll be a massive shake-up of the entire business model.

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#18

Post by jedimastert »

yalogin wrote: post #13

On top of all the things people mention here there is a huge vulnerability in Chrome that is undermining the whole thing. They mine data at the browser level and sell it to advertisers. This is in addition to what tons of advertisers do on individual web pages. So irrespective of what we do as long as Google and other browser manufacturers mine user data there is not much progress. I should add that Safari and Firefo…

> They mine data at the browser level and sell it to advertisers

Go you have any actual proof of this?

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#19

Post by jefftk »

mpeg wrote: post #16

> Third Parties can be allowed access to a first-party identity The problem with this, is that third parties can also be first parties and have their own data. The obvious examples are Facebook and Google today, when you use any service where they act as a third party, they may mix your identity with their first party id.

The first bullet point below that title is "First parties have a way to delegate access to a user identity to specific 3p's, as long as that delegated identity remains sharded by 1p." The model is proposing that if you allow Google to have access to user identities on your site, and I allow Google to have access to user identities on my site, the browser should prevent Google from joining those identities and detecting that the same user visited both of our sites.

(Disclosure: I work for Google, like the author of the article. Speaking only for myself.)

Re: A Potential Privacy Model for the Web

#20

Post by metalrain »

Few problems that Web has for privacy:

- IPs don't usually rotate often enough.

- Browsers can share user data however they want.

- User cannot by default choose what website is allowed to run or download. There are adblockers and such, but normal user doesn't know what needs to be allowed so that site works and it doesn't leak your data. And if developers choose to pass analytics data with actual content requests there is no way of preventing that while keeping site functional. - User agents and other metadata (resolution, browser features, cookies, latencies to servers, etc.) are shared without user consent.

Browser vendors could make lot of information available only after explicit consent, but that would break a lot of websites. And its hard to say when and what should you consent. This is same problem as for Android and iOS.

There are also valid reasons to share data between services and domains: SSO, social media, etc. How to make that easy?

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