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If you must run Windows 10

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Re: If you must run Windows 10

#171

Post by maxheadroom »

owenwil wrote: post #2

I see a lot of angry posts like this, but fail to understand how it's reflected in reality in 2019—I agree that Windows 10 was a little messy at launch, but it's come a long way from where many of these complaints seem to stem from. Yeah, Windows has a bad rap, but in the last 2-4 years has come leaps and bounds from where it was—implementing great, thoughtfully designed features on a regular basis, for free. With WS…

>...implementing great, thoughtfully designed features on a regular basis, for free.

Haven't we already learned the underlying issue with the moniker of "free" from the likes of Facebook and Google?

Re: If you must run Windows 10

#172

Post by wayneftw »

blub wrote: post #159
wayneftw wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time you go to check updates for macOS you have to see ads in their app store. Not only that, but Apple installs a ton of apps I don’t need, which are essentially advertised by simply existing on my launchpad. Things just show up after an update and I don’t see a difference between that and some third-party apps that Microsoft puts on the start menu for you.

1. Updates are done through settings. 2. Advertising is communication about a product or service. A product is not advertising in itself, logic doesn't work like that. It's also worth differentiating what one gets: free, quality apps with a decent privacy policy vs. pay to win games in Windows. You're trying a too hard to excuse customer-hostile behavior and it's embarrassing.

> You're trying a too hard to excuse customer-hostile behavior and it's embarrassing.

That was rude. I’m telling it like I see it. Did I offend your favorite OS or corporation or something like that? Why get personal with me??

1. OS updates had not been done through settings for a long, long time. However updates to Apples preinstalled applications are done through the App Store... Anyway, if it was OK for Apple to do through their store for 10-15 years, then it should be fine for Microsoft to do something comparable now. Right?

2. There are no ads in the Windows start menu according to your definition either then because Candy Crush simply exists as an icon there. As a matter fact I just setup a new Windows laptop last night and I didn’t see one ad. Just some preinstalled apps.

Are you sure that you know what you’re talking about?

Re: If you must run Windows 10

#173

Post by jevgeni »

lasagnaphil wrote: post #166
jevgeni wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t mean it’s free. When you buy a Mac Book you usually dish out around 1500 USD at the very least, where the cost of materials is at best 1/3 of that. You mostly pay for the design, the OS and the privilege. You can get a PC with Windows 10 Home Edition for 400 USD or so. The implied price point for the OS is way lower. The economic decision here (re ads) is to be able to make some money on the mass low-end m…

Maybe part of that decision is because so many people pirate Windows and are unwilling to pay for it, they’re trying to earn money through advertising instead...

Very good point! Thank you, I haven't thought about it this way.

Re: If you must run Windows 10

#174

Post by AsyncAwait »

terragon wrote: post #158
krisrm wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, I've had about the opposite experience. Never have been able to get a graphics card to perform well under any version of desktop Linux I've used, the sleep feature generally hasn't worked, fan control is all over the map, and I hate using terminal to configure everything . Windows has almost always just worked fine for me, as it does for ~80% of anyone using a desktop OS.

Agree a hundred percent! If I could get sleep/hibernate to work reliably, I would switch over to Lubuntu in an instant.

This is entirely hardware dependent, if you get a Linux-first/well tested laptop, it works. If you get just any random laptop, you'd likely hit some snags.

Re: If you must run Windows 10

#175

Post by zamadatix »

intarga wrote: post #168
jevgeni wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously: we don’t care. Apple and Microsoft do roughly an equal amount of telemetry. Ubuntu has telemetry. Obviously most people are fine with telemetry. Apple charges WAY more for its OS than Microsoft does for Windows 10 Home Edition. Don’t want adds? Buy the Pro version. This “apples are better than oranges” indignation about Windows 10 is getting old. Don’t like it? Fine. Let other people enjoy things they like…

Please tell me how much Apple charges for its OS

Some part of the ridiculous margins they put on the hardware you're required to have to legally run the OS.

Re: If you must run Windows 10

#176

Post by zamadatix »

oonis wrote: post #46
groundlogic wrote: post #7

I've been using Win 10 on my main desktop for the past four years or so. I almost feel embarassed for saying so. Microsoft definitely has a systemic "Software Quality Problem". It does get really embarassing at times. Or, at least I would hope someone there is embarassed. I'm not sure. Maybe Raymond Chen is the single one embarassed person and everyone else are new recruits happy to be there? Really, the only reason…

Is this site saying that for 240 dollars I can buy LTSB? I've been trying to get a hold of a copy but unsure about the legality of those 30 dollar keys online since I don't understand licensing.

The site details the process and requirements pretty well, not sure if there is something in particular you are looking for it doesn't describe?

As for the 30 dollar keys you can find online they will activate Windows but it won't actually be "legit", the requirements listed in the site are correct and you need a VL agreement and a CAL.

Re: If you must run Windows 10

#177

Post by kup0 »

wayneftw wrote: post #172
blub wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Updates are done through settings. 2. Advertising is communication about a product or service. A product is not advertising in itself, logic doesn't work like that. It's also worth differentiating what one gets: free, quality apps with a decent privacy policy vs. pay to win games in Windows. You're trying a too hard to excuse customer-hostile behavior and it's embarrassing.

> You're trying a too hard to excuse customer-hostile behavior and it's embarrassing. That was rude. I’m telling it like I see it. Did I offend your favorite OS or corporation or something like that? Why get personal with me?? 1. OS updates had not been done through settings for a long, long time. However updates to Apples preinstalled applications are done through the App Store... Anyway, if it was OK for Apple to d…

I did a brand new Windows install recently and it had all sorts of icons for apps in the Start Menu that aren't made by Microsoft. Candy Crush, some racing game, some other game, Spotify. In fact, some of these "pre-installed" apps weren't even installed (like crapware is) at all. They were icons that install the apps (or take you to the store) once you click them.

You honestly don't think those are ads? It's Microsoft pushing "install this!" icons for third-party apps from the store in your face in a non-related UI place in the OS, that you have not chosen to install. There is no other proper name for that than an ad. The apps are not even remotely related to Windows as a product and you don't have to even go to the store to see them- they are in a standard OS menu.

To be fair- I don't (as much) mind some Microsoft products being treated this way (OneDrive, Skype), because I would expect the creator of the OS to push their own stuff.

There is zero comparison to the MacOS App Store (where obviously there would be ads for apps... because it's a store... for apps.) If Apple started putting Candy Crush, Racing Games, and Spotify in my Dock on a new install- I would have just as much a problem with that.

Re: If you must run Windows 10

#178

Post by kup0 »

nvrspyx wrote: post #63
owenwil wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'phones home' argument doesn't really add up—there's plenty of control over this at this point, and every OS is calling home, macOS included, to some degree. The advertisements thing happens out of the box, and is trivial to remove (if my memory is correct, Safari harasses you about being the default browser, too, if you try to change it). The updates to add features thing.... isn't an issue for me, but YMMV.

macOS does not harass you about being the default browser. All it does is show a separator in the dropdown menu [1], which I've always assumed to indicate that it's "built-in". Meanwhile, Windows will show "Recommended" next to Edge, show a pop-up asking you to try Edge before switching the default browser, and then continue to harass you every time you use Bing from a different browser on Windows. Chrome does the la…

That and for some reason it seems like Edge likes to try very hard to keep itself the default PDF reader. Very annoying.

Re: If you must run Windows 10

#179

Post by beatgammit »

jevgeni wrote: post #145
rad_gruchalski wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it more expensive. The last macOS I had to pay for was mountain lion. That was 10.8. I get that I have to buy a mac to get the os but once I have it, I get the most recent version of macOS for free from the AppStore. https://www.apple.com/shop/help/downloadable_software

The price is included in the price of the whole product. I mean, it’s not the price of materials that dominate Apple’s pricing. And you actually have to pay money to people developing the OS. So no, it’s not free.

You're paying for the brand, design, etc. Yes, Apple funds OS development though other sales, but it's not sold separately and new OS releases are free. As far as I understand the law, I can legally install macOS on a machine that did not originally come with it installed (hackintosh), with the caveat that I violate Apple's EULA by doing so.

Microsoft bundles all sorts of software with their OS that can be installed separately for free, does that mean they're actually not free because development is funded through other product sales? A lot of their services have a free tier, are those services not free because there's a paid tier?

Apple's inflated hardware price certainly includes room for funding their OS development, but that doesn't mean the OS isn't free. Windows sales also likely go toward funding things other than OS development, but that doesn't mean that all of their products aren't free if you're running them on Windows.

Re: If you must run Windows 10

#180

Post by beatgammit »

jevgeni wrote: post #142
vondur wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are users “compensated” with a cheaper OS licenses in Windows 10. Most everyone uses the OS included with their device and will rarely pay for an update.

It doesn’t mean it’s free. When you buy a Mac Book you usually dish out around 1500 USD at the very least, where the cost of materials is at best 1/3 of that. You mostly pay for the design, the OS and the privilege. You can get a PC with Windows 10 Home Edition for 400 USD or so. The implied price point for the OS is way lower. The economic decision here (re ads) is to be able to make some money on the mass low-end m…

Afaik, Microsoft doesn't make much from large OEM sales since they give such a steep discount. I asked Lenovo to reduce the price on my laptop because I wouldn't be using Windows, so they gave me ~$40 discount and asked me to not enable Windows (which I didn't). This tells me that Windows for OEMs is around that price, which is less than half of the retail price.

Also, a $400 laptop is hardly comparable to a $1500 Apple laptop. I've had one of those, and the hardware really sucks, and stuff starts breaking within a year. It may have the same CPU, but the rest of the components are really crappy. If you want an closer comparison, compare high end laptops with the Apple laptops (Lenovo X- series, Dell XPS series, etc), which run at a much more similar price. If they're lower, it's because they have more competition than Apple does (Apple doesn't license its OS to competitors, so if you want their OS, you must buy their hardware).

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