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Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

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Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#101

Post by mikepurvis »

gremlinsinc wrote: post #87
lixtra wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My stomach turns thinking all we’re going to learn about this chapter in American history over the next 10 years because we’re not seeing all of it unfold in real time. > Much of this adds up to an existential crisis in democracy that we’re just now waking up to. When do you think it was better in the past?

We had better leaders in the past... We've moved the post too far right. Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower even from different parties I think all of them were in support of more support for the people, and I'm pretty sure Eisenhower and Roosevelt at least were both for universal healthcare for all, too bad they didn't push for it back then and get it. We wouldn't be having all the fights about healthcare we have today.

Yup, it's crazy how things that used to be bipartisan no-brainers are now these hugely polarizing issues. Freaking Nixon of all people created the EPA, and look what he had to say about pollution pricing:

"We believe that part of the answer lies in pricing energy on the basis of its full costs to society. One reason we use energy so lavishly today is that the price of energy does not include all of the social costs of producing it. The costs incurred in protecting the environment and the health and safety of workers, for example, are part of the real costs of producing energy-but they are not now all included in the price of the product."

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#102

Post by redblacktree »

devoply wrote: post #57
i_am_nomad wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can love your country without considering it to be perfect. In fact, the best kind of patriotism is the “if wrong, then make right” type. That being said, I do believe there are some special aspects to American culture which we should be proud of, and which attract immigrants from around the world.

Less corruption and more job opportunity / money I think sums it up for most people. Maybe rights and freedoms being a peripheral concern but for most people their countries of origins are free enough in that they know how to act not to get into trouble. Outside of that I don't think America has much of a culture.

I'll guess you aren't into sports. America has a huge sports culture. In my biased opinion, there are no better sports the world over than basketball and (American) football, both invented here. And the fact that we have states gives us some sense of "civic" pride attached to our local teams. College sports are similar. I'm glued to the screen when Purdue plays basketball. Europe has a basketball league, but the best players play here in the NBA. I'm not a big fan of hockey, and I know Canadians claim it, but the best players play in the NHL (National here being the US, despite teams in Canadian cities)

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#103

Post by redblacktree »

mrkstu wrote: post #52
cwperkins wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, I did not vote for the president but now find myself more aligned with the Republicans than any 2020 Democrat. Its a smear that they are anti-Diversity. A lot of the young men I know feel disenfranchised in a system that does not value them even though they are not in any positions of power. All are sympathetic to historical injustices and see the President doing things like First Step Act and O…

The problem is that the President cultivates groups that are nativist. Any good that some of his policies may do will not earn him any credibility if he wipes it away by minimizing the problematic nature of those that seek to use his voice as an amplification for their narratives. Unfortunately Trump seem incapable of cutting loose anyone who is willing to praise him unrestrainedly. So he ends up endorsing groups dir…

> voted 3rd party

So you're planning to have no effect on the outcome of the election?

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#104

Post by metalliqaz »

cwperkins wrote: post #55
metalliqaz wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that the way the president primarily is affecting minority groups is via First Step Act and Opportunity Zones, then you are either confused or willfully ignorant. His "me first" M.O. is based on stoking racial grievances and animosity in his base. His actual economic policies align exactly with the "swamp": funnel money to the wealthy. It sounds to me, frankly, that you are simply seeing what you want to…

I'd love to engage in any debate because ultimately I think that having diverse viewpoints ultimately leads to the most ideal solution. And not just Diversity of background, but diversity of bias is also important. I think the single most important thing being accomplished at the moment is the rebuilding of the middle class through bringing manufacturing back. It hasn't happened on a large scale yet, but I'm optimist…

> bringing manufacturing back

heh.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#105

Post by rubicon33 »

tomohawk wrote: post #99
rubicon33 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'm certainly open to being convinced otherwise. And I have made efforts to understand the world. Existential thinking is not foreign to me, in the slightest. That's lead me to - among others - books like "Why does the world exist" by Jim Holt. Ultimately, despite everything I've read and watched, including an upbringing in the Christian church... I can only draw the conclusion that we just don't know. We have…

The world is a hard place, and belief that offers hope and something worth putting your faith in is hard to come by. If you have not found a belief that offers hope, then keep looking.

I feel like I've been looking my entire life. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough, or maybe it's a lost cause.

It's true I haven't traveled to eastern asia and studied under the tutelage of a monk, I haven't taken ayahuasca from a shaman in the Amazon, I haven't drank the cool-aid at a Mormon retreat, or attended a Joel Osteen mega church sermon.

I just grew up in America, in a Catholic family. Went to church most Sundays until I was a teenager. There's a vide of me at a young age, asking (essentially) why we are here/alive. Seems that I'm still asking that.

So maybe you could say I haven't really been looking. But honestly, I think you have to believe in something a priori. You don't go to a shaman in the amazon because you want to believe, you go because you already do and you want to validate that.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#106

Post by thereare5lights »

jdsully wrote: post #53
thereare5lights wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> police can (and will) question you, search your pockets, etc. And can detain you at the police station for merely being suspicious That literally happens in the US as well.

Police cannot bring you to the police station for merely being suspicious. The standard is much higher for an arrest. They are allowed to pat down the outside of your pockets under the argument they need to be aware of weapons. I do agree this is heavily abused with stop & frisk which frankly shouldn't be legal if the police initiate the contact. But they cannot search inside without your permission. As far as legal…

You are talking about areas where police are held accountable.

In areas where they flout the law such as Baltimore, they do whatever they want and then sort it out later.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#107

Post by gremlinsinc »

rubicon33 wrote: post #96
gremlinsinc wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This! This is my philosophy, I picked it up from some stoic readings and teachings. Either you can be depressed and hate life and wallow in depression or take the easy way out or you can stop and find beauty in the 80-100 years we're given while on this rock. I used to be depressed and wanting to take the easy way out, now that I have two little boys -- I'm afraid of missing out on their lives. Missing just one major…

> I used to be depressed and wanting to take the easy way out, now that I have two little boys This is what I don't understand. You were depressed, recognized life as meaningless and without persistence, and yet you felt like it was a good idea to bring someone else into this world? I'll truly never understand the rational of people who are able to convince themselves of what they want to hear. I gather that you were…

I was more 'numb' and going with 'the flow'...doing what my wife wanted..cause I really didn't want/care about anything. Life was just a surreal numbness, so why not just let her be happy if I couldn't be... But now I find joy in so many things, I get angry as fuck when I see someone on tv hurting a little child in a movie or on the news, I have new dad emotions I never knew existed.

I cry whenever I hear the song Fade in / Fade out, because I know someday I'll cease to exist and my kids will go on without me, and I worry about how they will do, or what I'll miss... I also traded depression in for 24/7 anxiety about whether or not the kids are going to find a way to kill themselves that I haven't thought about. The other day my 2 year old came out of his room with a belt wrapped around his neck... scared the shit out of me. It was hung up but apparently he climbed on something to get it down...

I'm not numb and disassociated anymore. I enjoy the now, and live for the small moments. Everyone is selfish. Even mother theresa --nobody does good works without expecting something in return. Is it selfish to have kids? I don't think so. Do dogs and cats have selfish tendencies then? What about all other animals? If so then it's just natural to be selfish and I'm just being 'natural'.

My main point was until you're a father you'll never experience the whole gamut of life's experiences and will miss out on something amazing -- getting to relive your childhood through your kids. Not to mention children tend to keep you younger longer, mine will be graduating when I'm almost 60.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#108

Post by pnathan »

gremlinsinc wrote: post #89
pnathan wrote: post #44

In the circles I watch and hang around, we've moved from a cynical nihilism about government (nothing matters, elites always win) to a reckoning that we have to invest time and energy in our governance to get it to work for us. That age band is the 30-40 year olds, with a smattering of older and younger. I would say we have gotten more idealistic, but also more pragmatic. We like the ideals, we recognize that the cou…

I flip flop back and forth.... I'm encouraged by the Blue Wave and AOC, and the rise of Bernie/Warren, but at the same time I see corporations and Super PAC's becoming more and more powerful in this country. I do like what RiseUp is doing with anti-corruption campaigns across America. Ending the revolving door of money in politics I think is the surest way towards a more fair government. I'd much rather have a farmer…

> I think I'll totally drop cynicism about politics when we get a real progressive in the Oval office, or if Biden doesn't win and Warren or Bernie does. Just the fact of the progressives beating the establishment would totally lift my spirits and resolve. I'm hopeful that we do see more and more progressives, and intellectuals run in 2020 and win. Guess we'll need to wait and see how things pan out.

There's realism and there's cynicism. Realistically, your goals will not be easily achieved. Realistically, many people are flat desperate. Cynicism says, "why bother trying, it'll always be that way".

But I can tell you this: the current world didn't fall out of no where, it is not static. Many activists in worked to build it this way.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#109

Post by d1zzy »

rubicon33 wrote: post #6

I can tell you why "patriotism, religion and having children" have never been values for me (32 yr old)... Specifically, two are very closely related: Religion - I don't buy it. I never have, even from a young age. The idea of a mystical all powerful being floating in the sky watching us has always seemed absurd. And frankly, science has really done a number on my ability to believe in traditional religions. Do I bel…

Years back I came up with answers for those questions that work for me where it doesn't require for religion or afterlife and still makes me want to wake up the next day, YMMV. Also, I'm not religious, don't believe in after life, in spirits/souls and don't have children, yet I think I have a pretty happy and content life and almost never am affected by bouts of long term sadness/depression.

> If there is no afterlife, then what IS the point of this life?

First of all, think about the question itself. Why does this (and our existence in it) require a "point" to existence itself or a "purpose". Both of those concepts are human level concepts, they have no meaning to the universe. It's like asking "why isn't life fair" or "why isn't life rewarding good people", all those (fair and good) are human concepts that the universe cares not for. We are naked monkeys living on a tiny blue planet in a huge universe, to expect reality to conform to our evolved concepts of modeling the world is ultimate hubris.

Once I realized this I stopped asking the question. There is no "purpose of life" because the question itself is silly/absurd. Then the next question is, does it matter that there is no purpose?

I looked back at everything that brings joy to me in my day to day life and none of those things relate to life having a purpose or not. I am happy because I exercise and makes me feel good after it or makes me feel fit and healthy. I am happy because I live with someone I love (15+ years and going) and they love me and we share our existence, we enjoy time together, develop internal jokes, help each other (which in turn makes one feel good), comfort each other. I am happy because I have a satisfying job, smart coworkers, interesting projects and I'm well payed and can afford a good life. I am happy because I am still healthy and don't have to think about mortality every second or deal with pain or are afraid of the future.

I realize that makes me a very lucky person, but I also realize that none of the things above have anything to do with "purpose" in life or anything like that. Nor do those things exclude having kids, on the contrary, I imagine having kids would bring even more personal satisfaction and possibilities to be happy about. Having friends/developing relationships makes us feel good, we are evolved to be social beings, so that's why we do it, not because there's a purpose to life.

Hope this helps

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#110

Post by rubicon33 »

gremlinsinc wrote: post #107
rubicon33 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I used to be depressed and wanting to take the easy way out, now that I have two little boys This is what I don't understand. You were depressed, recognized life as meaningless and without persistence, and yet you felt like it was a good idea to bring someone else into this world? I'll truly never understand the rational of people who are able to convince themselves of what they want to hear. I gather that you were…

I was more 'numb' and going with 'the flow'...doing what my wife wanted..cause I really didn't want/care about anything. Life was just a surreal numbness, so why not just let her be happy if I couldn't be... But now I find joy in so many things, I get angry as fuck when I see someone on tv hurting a little child in a movie or on the news, I have new dad emotions I never knew existed. I cry whenever I hear the song Fa…

> Is it selfish to have kids?

With respect... at no point did you even describe the impetus to have kids as a means of gifting someone else an existence. You describe your reasoning as being entirely for your own gain... So how can you not see it as selfish?

Does that mean it's WRONG? No. I'm not saying you're a bad person, or that you did the wrong thing. You're 100% right when you say that it's "natural". I'd even say that for the community at-large, NOT having kids is more detrimental than otherwise.

I just can't bring myself to do it though. When I think about having kids I immediately see my hypothetical child, in my minds eye, being born with cerebral palsy, or childhood leukemia, or bi polar disorder. How could I look them in the eye and say, I'm sorry? I'm sorry, I knew it was a risk and I still chose to roll the dice. I'm sorry that I struggled my entire life with finding meaning, and true happiness, but I still chose to bring you into this to fill a void in myself. Now you get to suffer, like I did, until you choose to bring another life here.

No. It stops here.

Clearly, I disagree with the natural state of things. I don't think it's fair to subject someone to a life they didn't ask to live when you simply can't guarantee them anything. Their life isn't, or rather shouldn't, be in my hands. I'm not god.

Someone should assess whether they want this or not. Life is one big dice roll, and they should be able to assess the risk themselves before taking the plunge. Obviously that's not possible. Obviously the world I describe isn't the one we live in.

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