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A Buddhist monk confronts Japan's suicide culture (2013)

newyorker.com

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Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan's suicide culture (2013)

#11

Post by Annatar »

gerbilly wrote: post #10
l8mr4 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buddhism has an explanation for why these thoughts are soothing. It comes down to thinking provides a level of control and an appearance of a illusion you feel in control of. But alas this is illusion. The mind simply likes thinking. In fact Buddhists off camera will say your addicted to thinking. I believe this will be shown to be true. The default mode network may be the “addiction to thinking.”

I haven't ever heard of the explanation you offer for why thoughts are helpful (having the appearance of control over an apparent illusion?). Thinking is required in buddhist practise, it's just not thinking about anything you please. Also, one usually deals with the coarser forms of suffering first, and no special esoteric philosophies and techniques are needed to address them, usually just clear thinking and proble…

"having the appearance of control over an apparent illusion?"

Just before Ninakawa passed away the Zen master Ikkyu visited him. “Shall I lead you on?” Ikkyu asked.

Ninakawa replied: “I came here alone and I go alone. What help could you be to me?”

Ikkyu answered: “If you think you really come and go, that is your delusion. Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and going.”

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan's suicide culture (2013)

#12

Post by dfxm12 »

b5 wrote: post #5

This is one of my favourite New Yorker articles. I wish they published more articles like this. Suicidal thoughts are a really tough thing to deal with. I've struggled with them for my entire adult life -- more than 20 years now, and counting. They're also deeply personal, and it's hard to find a one-size-fits-all method of helping people through them. In my case, I find them perversely soothing. Planning it out, and…

I wish they published more articles like this.

Like how, exactly? About suicide? About foreign culture? From a monk?

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan's suicide culture (2013)

#13

Post by b5 »

dfxm12 wrote: post #12
b5 wrote: post #5

This is one of my favourite New Yorker articles. I wish they published more articles like this. Suicidal thoughts are a really tough thing to deal with. I've struggled with them for my entire adult life -- more than 20 years now, and counting. They're also deeply personal, and it's hard to find a one-size-fits-all method of helping people through them. In my case, I find them perversely soothing. Planning it out, and…

I wish they published more articles like this. Like how, exactly? About suicide? About foreign culture? From a monk?

You're taking that a little too literally. I wish they published more human-focussed, long-form writing on a range of topics that is readable and relevant even years after it's first published. It seems to have veered quite heavily into fast-cycle political stuff in the last couple of years.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan's suicide culture (2013)

#14

Post by gerbilly »

Annatar wrote: post #11
gerbilly wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't ever heard of the explanation you offer for why thoughts are helpful (having the appearance of control over an apparent illusion?). Thinking is required in buddhist practise, it's just not thinking about anything you please. Also, one usually deals with the coarser forms of suffering first, and no special esoteric philosophies and techniques are needed to address them, usually just clear thinking and proble…

"having the appearance of control over an apparent illusion?" Just before Ninakawa passed away the Zen master Ikkyu visited him. “Shall I lead you on?” Ikkyu asked. Ninakawa replied: “I came here alone and I go alone. What help could you be to me?” Ikkyu answered: “If you think you really come and go, that is your delusion. Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and going.”

I get what is being referred to, but if you are implying that buddhism teaches everything is an illusion, the Buddha himself specifically warned his followers away from nihilism and solipsism.

Your everyday conventional wisdom is not negated by buddhism.

For example, buddhist people use the word 'I' all the time ("Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and going."), despite trying to realise the doctrine of 'no self" in their practise.

The doctrines attempt to eliminate suffering, proceeding from the coarsest levels down to more and more subtle forms of suffering.

The delusion the monk is suffering from here, can only become uncovered after much work has been done clearing the way first.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan's suicide culture (2013)

#15

Post by emptysongglass »

gerbilly wrote: post #14
Annatar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"having the appearance of control over an apparent illusion?" Just before Ninakawa passed away the Zen master Ikkyu visited him. “Shall I lead you on?” Ikkyu asked. Ninakawa replied: “I came here alone and I go alone. What help could you be to me?” Ikkyu answered: “If you think you really come and go, that is your delusion. Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and going.”

I get what is being referred to, but if you are implying that buddhism teaches everything is an illusion, the Buddha himself specifically warned his followers away from nihilism and solipsism. Your everyday conventional wisdom is not negated by buddhism. For example, buddhist people use the word 'I' all the time ("Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and going."), despite trying to realise the doctrin…

This Zen parable is faulty wisdom (like so much of Mahayana and Vajrayana fanfiction). The title the Buddha used to refer to himself, Tathagata, can simultaneously be translated as, "Thus Comes One" and "Thus Goes One". It's not about a path where there is no coming and going, it's about both simultaneously.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan's suicide culture (2013)

#16

Post by momokoko »

The reason I consider ending my life is because I have done the things I've wanted to do in life. I would not have much to write on that paper as opposed to visiting some friends and family for some conversation and hugs.

I think we forget that much of the suicide rate in adults, especially over 50, is that the burden of life in much of the United States can become higher than the benefits for some people at that age. Things like health ailments, cost of healthcare, worsening job prospects, lack of social connections etc.

Please, do not take this as encouragement or other things for suicide. It is simply an effort to help others to consider the quality of life issues we are creating for people, as they age, in the United States. We continue to try to treat the person, but maybe we need to treat the circumstances we are creating that can place a person in that position.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan's suicide culture (2013)

#17

Post by nx2059 »

l8mr4 wrote: post #6
b5 wrote: post #5

This is one of my favourite New Yorker articles. I wish they published more articles like this. Suicidal thoughts are a really tough thing to deal with. I've struggled with them for my entire adult life -- more than 20 years now, and counting. They're also deeply personal, and it's hard to find a one-size-fits-all method of helping people through them. In my case, I find them perversely soothing. Planning it out, and…

Buddhism has an explanation for why these thoughts are soothing. It comes down to thinking provides a level of control and an appearance of a illusion you feel in control of. But alas this is illusion. The mind simply likes thinking. In fact Buddhists off camera will say your addicted to thinking. I believe this will be shown to be true. The default mode network may be the “addiction to thinking.”

I think the solution might be somewhat simple, something I've noticed recently while trying to deal with my own stress. I recalled that as a child I would often do something very strange. I would just lay on the floor staring at the carpet, just completely mesmerized by the most banal of things. I'm mean there's less happening than watching paint dry. Or I would sit out in the yard in the fresh air and stare and some patch of dirt and grass for some period of time. I spoke to my girlfriend and she said that she recalled doing something similar. she said she had a very distinct memory of a door knob and just starting at it. I think maybe most children do this instinctively and forget it when they grow up. And rather than worry about complex esoteric philosophies just practicing a simple child like act for some time a day can help (and yes I know this is similar to practices known as grounding, but maybe more time is necessary to be devoted to it for it to restore inner calm)

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan's suicide culture (2013)

#18

Post by autogn0me »

gerbilly wrote: post #10
l8mr4 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buddhism has an explanation for why these thoughts are soothing. It comes down to thinking provides a level of control and an appearance of a illusion you feel in control of. But alas this is illusion. The mind simply likes thinking. In fact Buddhists off camera will say your addicted to thinking. I believe this will be shown to be true. The default mode network may be the “addiction to thinking.”

I haven't ever heard of the explanation you offer for why thoughts are helpful (having the appearance of control over an apparent illusion?). Thinking is required in buddhist practise, it's just not thinking about anything you please. Also, one usually deals with the coarser forms of suffering first, and no special esoteric philosophies and techniques are needed to address them, usually just clear thinking and proble…

Thinking is required but knowing your thinking is the first step. We slip into thinking without knowing and that is the problem. How many hours does the depressed person wallow? Enjoying the trauma they control in their mind as they "future" the coming doom they will face or the regret of the past. There is nothing esoteric. Less than 100 hours of meditation can get you to this insight.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan's suicide culture (2013)

#19

Post by mistrial9 »

emptysongglass wrote: post #15
gerbilly wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what is being referred to, but if you are implying that buddhism teaches everything is an illusion, the Buddha himself specifically warned his followers away from nihilism and solipsism. Your everyday conventional wisdom is not negated by buddhism. For example, buddhist people use the word 'I' all the time ("Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and going."), despite trying to realise the doctrin…

This Zen parable is faulty wisdom (like so much of Mahayana and Vajrayana fanfiction). The title the Buddha used to refer to himself, Tathagata , can simultaneously be translated as, "Thus Comes One" and "Thus Goes One". It's not about a path where there is no coming and going, it's about both simultaneously.

great truths are paradox -- both true and not true, at once

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan's suicide culture (2013)

#20

Post by okmokmz »

momokoko wrote: post #16

The reason I consider ending my life is because I have done the things I've wanted to do in life. I would not have much to write on that paper as opposed to visiting some friends and family for some conversation and hugs. I think we forget that much of the suicide rate in adults, especially over 50, is that the burden of life in much of the United States can become higher than the benefits for some people at that age…

There are 26 countries with suicide rates higher than the US
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