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Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

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Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#361

Post by wan23 »

cthalupa wrote: post #165
cassbot wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Chinese American, I've noticed that propaganda is everywhere and we all need to be wary of it. Tiananmen is often brought up, but did you know that the US experienced a parallel event? I didn't learn about this in US history class, but apparently soldiers fired upon unarmed student protesters in the Kent State shooting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

The Kent State shooting is taught in almost all high school history classes. Not sure how you missed it. It's also a totally different scale - 4 vs. a number in the hundreds to thousands. We don't even know the numbers for sure because it's been clamped down so massively, vs. Kent State, where we know exactly what happened.

I wouldn't say it's taught in almost all high school history classes. In my experience the history curriculum doesn't cover very many things past world war 2. For example the New York State social studies curriculum has everything from 1945-1990 in a single unit, with the Vietnam war being a sub-unit ( http://www.nysed.gov/common/nysed/files/programs/curriculum-... )

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#362

Post by cameronc56 »

yaowenjiaozi wrote: post #353
cameronc56 wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had to guess, it is not an inquiry into standard riot police procedure. 2 days ago a video surfaced of two hong kong police officers torturing a 62 year old man: https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/cstj3u/hong... Do you not think it is fair for protesters to want to launch an inquiry into this behavior? > incentivize rioting as the proper form of making demands going forward what evidence of rioting…

> Do you not think it is fair for protesters to want to launch an inquiry into this behavior? For the torture case, it is reported that the policemen involved have been arrested. In my view, the case should be dealt with under existing laws. An independent inquiry should be launched if/when there is systemic police abuse. > Evidence of rioting Many videos on Youtube. Here's one on last week's airport assault of two m…

None of those links provide any context to why they were started.

> Another video of the airport riot. According to reports, the policeman who drew his pistol had had his testicles smashed when he was being beaten up and he is now in hospital.

https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/cputoi/policeman_sta...

See how it was started by the policeman bodyslamming a innocent girl?

I could also cherry pick a bunch of videos showing chinese violence against protesters.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/clbof6/in_a...

https://amp.news.com.au/national/queensland/hong-kong-protes...

https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/coy60g/a_young_femal...

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#363

Post by yaowenjiaozi »

cameronc56 wrote: post #362
yaowenjiaozi wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you not think it is fair for protesters to want to launch an inquiry into this behavior? For the torture case, it is reported that the policemen involved have been arrested. In my view, the case should be dealt with under existing laws. An independent inquiry should be launched if/when there is systemic police abuse. > Evidence of rioting Many videos on Youtube. Here's one on last week's airport assault of two m…

None of those links provide any context to why they were started. > Another video of the airport riot. According to reports, the policeman who drew his pistol had had his testicles smashed when he was being beaten up and he is now in hospital. https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/cputoi/policeman_sta... See how it was started by the policeman bodyslamming a innocent girl? I could also cherry pick a bunch of videos…

> no context

You asked for evidence of riots. Are you claiming that these scenes don't constitute rioting?

As for context, some of the links I provided are news reports in Cantonese or Mandarin. I suppose you don't understand what the newscasters or the people in the videos are saying?

> bodyslamming a (sic) innocent girl

And there was a bunch of armed people on standby all ready to retaliate? Yup, not the scene of a riot.

> https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/clbof6/in_a...

You know that the guy punching is Chinese how?

All of them were speaking Cantonese. I speak Cantonese and I understand what they were saying.

> https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/coy60g/a_young_femal...

The woman was shot at a _siege_ of a police station and she was in rioters' typical battle gear. The police have not ruled out that they could have shot her, but they are still investigating. The woman has so far refused to come public. If she was indeed shot by the police, you'd imagine that the protest movement would've called press conferences, published hospital reports and all that. So far, nothing.

> https://amp.news.com.au/national/queensland/hong-kong-protes...

I condemn all violence. This subthread is on evidence of rioting in Hong Kong. Yes you can cherry pick videos showing violence carried out by Chinese-looking people. And that's what you have done.

Edit: Wording

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#364

Post by lsiebert »

age_of_stone wrote: post #357
jplayer01 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is Hong Kong government that proposed the new law. A government which is effectively a mouthpiece for the CCP (and has increasingly become so since '97). People aren't protesting China out of nowhere. It's because China has been closing its grip on HK's political process for years now. Are you really trying to say with a straight face that the extradition bill to China has nothing to do with China and its influe…

you can speculate that China government is behind the bill. anyone can. but it's speculation until there is evidence. So far, there isn't such evidence as far as I am aware. In my understanding, China central government favors Hong Kong stability over anything else. It's quite likely that it's Hong Kong government but China central government that proposed the bill.

No, they explicitly support it.

https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/05/18/beijings-office-hong-k...

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#365

Post by age_of_stone »

lsiebert wrote: post #364
age_of_stone wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can speculate that China government is behind the bill. anyone can. but it's speculation until there is evidence. So far, there isn't such evidence as far as I am aware. In my understanding, China central government favors Hong Kong stability over anything else. It's quite likely that it's Hong Kong government but China central government that proposed the bill.

No, they explicitly support it. https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/05/18/beijings-office-hong-k...

assume if you are a leader of central government and your trusted local government proposes a bill, would you support it or not? can you simply say it's wrong to support?

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#366

Post by gingabriska »

pimmen wrote: post #255
markus_zhang wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I pretty much agree with you. It's very difficult to rule a large country as China and Chinese people generally respect that. Also like you said, the failure of those color revolutions just showed other people how important stable is.

I've never understood then why the Chinese are against democracy. If everyone is happy and can't imagine a better government wouldn't they just elect the CCP every time?

No because "hope for better always exists".

If some new party comes and aims at the weak spots of CCP like censorship etc...etc... And promises that we'll keep economy as fast as CCP does minus the personal freedom restrictions. People will vote for them.

And new party might even attempt this and take economy several years back.

Democracy will include lots of selling hopes and setbacks...it takes time to learn new lessons for public

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#367

Post by amaccuish »

cthalupa wrote: post #165
cassbot wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Chinese American, I've noticed that propaganda is everywhere and we all need to be wary of it. Tiananmen is often brought up, but did you know that the US experienced a parallel event? I didn't learn about this in US history class, but apparently soldiers fired upon unarmed student protesters in the Kent State shooting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

The Kent State shooting is taught in almost all high school history classes. Not sure how you missed it. It's also a totally different scale - 4 vs. a number in the hundreds to thousands. We don't even know the numbers for sure because it's been clamped down so massively, vs. Kent State, where we know exactly what happened.

Sorry, I forgot that America is the only country in the world where a certain number of people need to die by shooting for people to care, and that number has never been attained...

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#368

Post by pimmen »

gingabriska wrote: post #366
pimmen wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood then why the Chinese are against democracy. If everyone is happy and can't imagine a better government wouldn't they just elect the CCP every time?

No because "hope for better always exists". If some new party comes and aims at the weak spots of CCP like censorship etc...etc... And promises that we'll keep economy as fast as CCP does minus the personal freedom restrictions. People will vote for them. And new party might even attempt this and take economy several years back. Democracy will include lots of selling hopes and setbacks...it takes time to learn new le…

But democracy would also open up new ides to run the country that would create an even stronger economy. After all, it was the CCP ceding control ocer much of the economy that laid the ground work for the Chinese economic boom, for most of the CCP’s history it has failed miserably at its job and set China back by decades. There’s no reason to believe it has found the optimal solution now.

Plus, we could maybe see a fairer distribution of wealth and prosperity. Wealth disparity is a very big problem in China.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#369

Post by gingabriska »

pimmen wrote: post #368
gingabriska wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No because "hope for better always exists". If some new party comes and aims at the weak spots of CCP like censorship etc...etc... And promises that we'll keep economy as fast as CCP does minus the personal freedom restrictions. People will vote for them. And new party might even attempt this and take economy several years back. Democracy will include lots of selling hopes and setbacks...it takes time to learn new le…

But democracy would also open up new ides to run the country that would create an even stronger economy. After all, it was the CCP ceding control ocer much of the economy that laid the ground work for the Chinese economic boom, for most of the CCP’s history it has failed miserably at its job and set China back by decades. There’s no reason to believe it has found the optimal solution now. Plus, we could maybe see a f…

CCP above all care about their own power then comes China's interest.

I simply posted why they might not want democracy. As they might fear about losing power.

If we assume democracy does good, but it still makes CCP lose power then it's not good for CCP and they'll not want it.

If democracy will actually be good or bad, that's open discussion. But that's not point of my comment.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#370

Post by pas »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #351
pas wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One success/failure story does not mean much. There are a lot of studies about how economic prosperity and democracy/liberalism went hand in hand in a lot of countries. And there are outliers, and the studies can be questioned, and so on. China rented out its workforce and a relatively enlightened but autocratic leadership made sure it works, they make a lot of money, and that they reinvest that. India never had such…

> Also, don't forget how India slowly started to get rid of the caste system and other deep rooted inequality problems, similarly grassroots efforts to curb corruption progressed through the various courts and legislatures. China spent no time with such sentimental stuff. China has a full blown caste system via hukous.

How prevalent it is compared to party/political clout-based hierarchy?
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