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Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

latimes.com

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Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#351

Post by seanmcdirmid »

pas wrote: post #274
peteretep wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but a Chinese citizen could quite legitimately make the case that their system is superior to Western democracy on a pragmatic level It is even easier to look at India, where the putative democracy the country has has not led to any kind of economic miracle for the poor.

One success/failure story does not mean much. There are a lot of studies about how economic prosperity and democracy/liberalism went hand in hand in a lot of countries. And there are outliers, and the studies can be questioned, and so on. China rented out its workforce and a relatively enlightened but autocratic leadership made sure it works, they make a lot of money, and that they reinvest that. India never had such…

> Also, don't forget how India slowly started to get rid of the caste system and other deep rooted inequality problems, similarly grassroots efforts to curb corruption progressed through the various courts and legislatures. China spent no time with such sentimental stuff.

China has a full blown caste system via hukous.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#352

Post by vmlinuz »

roboys wrote: post #298
PavlovsCat wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I wanted to contradict you, then I thought better and didn't want to bicker, but then saw you had gotten 3 downvotes in this short time, which I also don't like -- so I'll just say what for me is the main thing: > For the record, I'm not saying that Hong Kongers are wrong for protesting or wanting freedom. I'm just saying they'll fail, and the consequences won't be pretty. You may be correct, you may not. I…

>You may be correct, you may not. I wonder if people said the same thing right up to the end of segregation, and other things. But that doesn't matter: might does not make right. Our predictions don't matter, our individual stances do. Getting rid of segregation has a strong moral foundation and backing... keeping colonial roots in control of HK, not so much.

Uh... I'm not sure how wanting protection from arbitrary legal attacks, and the right to choose your own government qualifies as "keeping colonial roots"? If anything, there is a wide feeling here that Hong Kong essentially swapped one colonial power for another, and at least towards the end of the British rule it was more benevolent than CCP rule has become recently...

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#353

Post by yaowenjiaozi »

cameronc56 wrote: post #345
yaowenjiaozi wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#2 withdrawal of "riot" characterization and #3 unconditional release of all arrested protestors, then by implication #4 independent inquiry into police behaviour. Because if #2 and #3 come to be, then #4 will surely severely censure the police for firing tear gas, bean bag bullets and rubber bullets, which will demoralize the police, greatly damage their ability to maintain law and order and incentivize rioting as t…

If I had to guess, it is not an inquiry into standard riot police procedure. 2 days ago a video surfaced of two hong kong police officers torturing a 62 year old man: https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/cstj3u/hong... Do you not think it is fair for protesters to want to launch an inquiry into this behavior? > incentivize rioting as the proper form of making demands going forward what evidence of rioting…

> Do you not think it is fair for protesters to want to launch an inquiry into this behavior?

For the torture case, it is reported that the policemen involved have been arrested. In my view, the case should be dealt with under existing laws. An independent inquiry should be launched if/when there is systemic police abuse.

> Evidence of rioting

Many videos on Youtube. Here's one on last week's airport assault of two mainland Chinese. The two were trapped and tortured for hours and rioters prevented medical/police personnel from getting to them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz4-Ld1l7iI

Another video of the airport riot. According to reports, the policeman who drew his pistol had had his testicles smashed when he was being beaten up and he is now in hospital.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpQpwQijRzg

Attacking the Legislature building in July.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO16RnQNZmU

Attacking the Legislature, view from outside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPU86QO8pUw

In June.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG23TIb-pUo

Randomly attacking a policeman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuCgEAxwevI

Randomly attacking civilian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15gprNFvBiY

It has been like this for weeks.

It's funny (in a sad way) reading in this thread posters confidently labeling others brainwashed when they are the ones being fed a controlled narrative.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#354

Post by awakeasleep »

ccccppppp wrote: post #25

Or how many Russians don't understand why Ukraine for example is upset. Is as if propaganda works. Who would have thought. Once I was discussing with a Chinese colleague and the Tiananmen subject came up (it was in the news, I didn't bring it up), and he told me that the students were not that innocent either, that they killed 150 soldiers the night before. I asked him, how could some students with rocks kill 150 sol…

Sean's comment above about 'a lot of nuance' is a huge understatement.

First off, I think China is a corrupt superpower and a huge threat to the USA, and there is no comparison or ambiguity about who the good guys are (the USA).

But the Tiananmen Square thing was severely fucked up. Originally the soldiers were not allowed to fire on civilians, and they were lynched and burned alive. There are lots of photos of the corpses of the soldiers being displayed or placed in conspicuous places by the civilians.

The civilians could kill the soldiers because the soldiers were under orders not to hurt civs.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#355

Post by 100100010001 »

tomhoward wrote: post #309
100100010001 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve got five the majority are from the USA.

I'm not from the USA, I've just been using this site for over 10 years and I'm familiar with the guidelines and norms that ask us not to engage in nationalistic battle ("flamewar topics"), or use all-caps for emphasis, or to complain about downvotes (which seems particularly apt when the likely reason for those downvotes is that multiple guidelines have been broken). https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Fair enough. I’m sorry. I’ve been pretty upset about the situation in the USA, and my last few post were definitely based on emotion rather than having a serious discussion. This isn’t a justification for the actions just an explanation of the flaws I have that led to them. I fell prey to the wizard’s third rule... passion rules reason.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#356

Post by mips_avatar »

_ptgt wrote: post #208
mips_avatar wrote: post #185

Something needs to be done about the poor assimilation of Chinese students on American campuses. We had a particularly bad incident at Penn State where the Chinese student association held a banquet, and performed a rap saying that “all Americans will soon call China daddy”. https://supchina.com/2018/04/27/nationalist-chinese-rap-prov...

Any active assimilation efforts will almost certainly backfire and would be a massive civil rights infringement. All immigrants, not just Chinese, tend to associate with their own ethnic subgroup in the US and always have. Time is the only real assimilator. That said, the CCP does and will continue to actively attempt to influence Chinese living in America and the US needs to take a look at that.

I think the universities could do more to build friendship and a campus community between the Chinese students and the rest of the university.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#357

Post by age_of_stone »

jplayer01 wrote: post #280
age_of_stone wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China didn't take any actions before the protest. It is Hong Kong government that proposed the new law. just fyi for making a valid cause.

> It is Hong Kong government that proposed the new law. A government which is effectively a mouthpiece for the CCP (and has increasingly become so since '97). People aren't protesting China out of nowhere. It's because China has been closing its grip on HK's political process for years now. Are you really trying to say with a straight face that the extradition bill to China has nothing to do with China and its influe…

you can speculate that China government is behind the bill. anyone can. but it's speculation until there is evidence. So far, there isn't such evidence as far as I am aware.

In my understanding, China central government favors Hong Kong stability over anything else. It's quite likely that it's Hong Kong government but China central government that proposed the bill.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#358

Post by age_of_stone »

pas wrote: post #267
age_of_stone wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Authoritarian regimes are rarely fair and are not particularly interested in the financial well being of the population." if you think Chinese government is authoritarian, then it is an exception coz it does care and try its best to improve the financial well being of the population. and it is the social contract between China government and its people. you need to realize that even "authoritarian" governments are q…

sure, oppressive regimes usually favor the "people". in this case if you are Han Chinese and don't have any strange ideas (eg Falun Gong, democracy, liberalism), then you can get ahead pretty well. Otherwise not so much. See Xinjiang, Tibet, and so on.

believe or not, people in Xingjing and Tibet used to have more rights than Han Chinese. for example, they were allowed to have more than one children while Han Chinese were strictly not allowed the second child. it's much easier for Uighur and Tibetan students to go to prestigious colleges with lower scores. and so on. you name it. the government did that in hope of country unity.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#359

Post by tomhoward »

100100010001 wrote: post #355
tomhoward wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not from the USA, I've just been using this site for over 10 years and I'm familiar with the guidelines and norms that ask us not to engage in nationalistic battle ("flamewar topics"), or use all-caps for emphasis, or to complain about downvotes (which seems particularly apt when the likely reason for those downvotes is that multiple guidelines have been broken). https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Fair enough. I’m sorry. I’ve been pretty upset about the situation in the USA, and my last few post were definitely based on emotion rather than having a serious discussion. This isn’t a justification for the actions just an explanation of the flaws I have that led to them. I fell prey to the wizard’s third rule... passion rules reason.

Cheers for the comment, and good on you for the self-reflection.

I sympathise with the propensity to get angry over all the things that seem wrong in the world. Is't something I've been working to contain in myself for a long time.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#360

Post by computerfriend »

throwaway3e2tr wrote: post #195
PavlovsCat wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I wanted to contradict you, then I thought better and didn't want to bicker, but then saw you had gotten 3 downvotes in this short time, which I also don't like -- so I'll just say what for me is the main thing: > For the record, I'm not saying that Hong Kongers are wrong for protesting or wanting freedom. I'm just saying they'll fail, and the consequences won't be pretty. You may be correct, you may not. I…

I think looking at Macau is a good example. They are in the same political and cultural position as Hong Kong: 1 country 2 systems, colonized by a European country, speak Cantonese, etc. but there are no protests in Macau. Why? The economy is doing well and people there are relatively well off.

Macau passed the national security law.
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