RIP Bill Zeller • Hacker News Board

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#91

Post by rdtsc » Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 6:40 AM UTC

haberman wrote: post #87

lwhi wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I for one, thought that it was quite positive thing and I respect his decision to take his own life. I disagree. Maybe it's possible to understand some of what he felt from his eloquent explanation, but I don't think suicide is ever the only solution. There will be other people reading this, who will be in similar situations. It fills me with so much sadness to think that there might be one who reads this and thinks…

> I don't think suicide is ever the only solution. What do you base this on? Wishful thinking about the capability of modern medicine? Or a belief that it's a person's duty to live through intolerable pain for the sake of others? > It fills me with so much sadness to think that there might be one who reads this and thinks .. 'yep, that was the right thing to do'. It annoys me that so many people will take a person wh…

> What do you base this on? Wishful thinking about the capability of modern medicine?

It could be a personal belief, just like your belief that "he is free of this demons forever" or the fact that he somehow "found peace". I don't see anything wrong with someone believing that suicide is never a good solution.

> It annoys me that so many people will take a person who finally found peace from a life of intolerable pain.

There is something about that statement that is bothering me and again, it is just probably because it clashes against my belief on life, death, etc. matters (so don't take this as a valid reasonable disagreement, just another point of view). The idea that somehow "he" is better now. I emphasize "he" because somehow it implies his continued existence, and that is quite strange. What if "he" doesn't exist anymore so there is nobody to feel at peace?

Does that mean that I would have preferred for him to still be alive and be suffering? Would have that been a better way? I don't think so either, so I am just another confused person.

I guess the best scenario would have been been if he sent out what he sent out but he didn't actually kill himself.

Perhaps naively, I believe that would have helped him, it would have let others know about his problem, and others , maybe even strangers like us, discussing his actions here, could have shared our stories or tried to do something to help.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#92

Post by dasil003 » Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 6:41 AM UTC

xatax wrote: post #44

bad_user wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing you have to realize is that a counselor/doctor is not your friend, but someone that helps you solve your problems with professional advice (level of competency varies of course). Getting over any recurrent destructive mood is much like a war. First you need to go to war, then you need strategies, you need to work on it and there's going to be pain involved, with multiple battles won and lost. Going to couns…

One thing you have to realize is that a counselor/doctor is not your friend For a person dealing with trust issues, this sort of realization shatters any chance of progress, at least in my personal experience. I can't feel safe if I think I could say the wrong word and have the cops drag me off for questioning. That's why I never got anywhere with counseling. For a person with trust issues, it's extremely important t…

And fortunately counselors and doctors are humans as well, and you can find ones that will care personally about you. In this case "friend" is a loaded term, because of course it is true that you are paying for professional services, but on the other hand, friendship is not exactly a well-defined term, and there are some pretty tenuous and abusive reasons underlying a lot of real friendships.

I've had a couple really good counselors, and the sense of trust and genuine caring is actually better than with most friends. Part of it is that there are no social dynamics to worry about within a group of friends, and another is that this person is a professional who has a much greater chance of having the tools and experience to deal with what are very difficult and private issues.

Now my issues were not with trust, so I'm not trying to say that trust is easy. All I'm saying is that there are counselors out there who are worthy of your trust.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#93

Post by tomjen3 » Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 6:43 AM UTC

2oi03i9fhujcnd wrote: post #88

gphil wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to respond to your assertion that "he knows that doctors and counselors have allowances for when they can disclose information." This is true, but I think that it would be possible to find a counselor that would not disclose any information, even if they were technically allowed to do so. Furthermore, it seems possible to me that such secrets could be partially disclosed to a counselor in a way in which ther…

Thank you for your kind words. To understand where Bill is coming from you really need to hop into his shoes. He tried to trust people but they violated that trust. Regardless of the reasons for doing that, they didn't keep his secret. What he told them was much less important to him than his ultimate secret. If they can't keep those smaller secrets, why can they keep the big one? For better or worse all of the other…

His error was to assume that people who would give up a small secret would also give up a larger one. That's not at all a given.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#94

Post by tomjen3 » Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 6:50 AM UTC

nickl wrote: post #58

I think he should have joined doctors without borders, peace corps or whatever it is called, or one of those Christian mission (even though he had a problem with Christians) . He may have found peace in helping those who suffered more then him

Do you really think most of the people doctors without borders helped suffered as much as he did?

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#95

Post by 2oi03i9fhujcnd » Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 6:54 AM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #93

2oi03i9fhujcnd wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your kind words. To understand where Bill is coming from you really need to hop into his shoes. He tried to trust people but they violated that trust. Regardless of the reasons for doing that, they didn't keep his secret. What he told them was much less important to him than his ultimate secret. If they can't keep those smaller secrets, why can they keep the big one? For better or worse all of the other…

His error was to assume that people who would give up a small secret would also give up a larger one. That's not at all a given.

It isn't for the secret-listener to decide what is worthwhile to hold in confidence. A small secret shouldn't be disclosed just because the person that heard it thinks that it isn't worth keeping secret.

Besides, I don't think contemporary community standards would consider coming out as gay as being a small secret.

Generalizing further, it really isn't fair for me to classify any of these as big or small. One person may consider coming out as gay as no big deal and hide past sexual abuse, while another may consider disclosing past sexual abuse as no big deal and not disclose sexual orientation. It isn't for me to decide which is bigger than the other.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#96

Post by pyre » Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 6:55 AM UTC

2oi03i9fhujcnd wrote: post #88

gphil wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to respond to your assertion that "he knows that doctors and counselors have allowances for when they can disclose information." This is true, but I think that it would be possible to find a counselor that would not disclose any information, even if they were technically allowed to do so. Furthermore, it seems possible to me that such secrets could be partially disclosed to a counselor in a way in which ther…

Thank you for your kind words. To understand where Bill is coming from you really need to hop into his shoes. He tried to trust people but they violated that trust. Regardless of the reasons for doing that, they didn't keep his secret. What he told them was much less important to him than his ultimate secret. If they can't keep those smaller secrets, why can they keep the big one? For better or worse all of the other…

For some people that 'one person' is themselves. And those people aren't necessarily abused people with deep, dark secrets. To say that everyone has that person is a fallacy. The world rarely deals in absolutes.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#97

Post by pyre » Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 7:05 AM UTC

2oi03i9fhujcnd wrote: post #95

tomjen3 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His error was to assume that people who would give up a small secret would also give up a larger one. That's not at all a given.

It isn't for the secret-listener to decide what is worthwhile to hold in confidence. A small secret shouldn't be disclosed just because the person that heard it thinks that it isn't worth keeping secret. Besides, I don't think contemporary community standards would consider coming out as gay as being a small secret. Generalizing further, it really isn't fair for me to classify any of these as big or small. One person…

  > Besides, I don't think contemporary community standards
  > would consider coming out as gay as being a small secret.

Well, I agree that coming out shouldn't be viewed as a small secret. Though I feel in the minds of a lot of people "something that are you are" is more likely to be fair game for rumor and ridicule than "something (especially a trauma) that has happened to you." I.e. confiding a tragedy/trauma to someone will more universally be perceived as 'serious' and 'a big deal' in terms of keeping confidences.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#98

Post by 2oi03i9fhujcnd » Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 7:07 AM UTC

pyre wrote: post #96

2oi03i9fhujcnd wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your kind words. To understand where Bill is coming from you really need to hop into his shoes. He tried to trust people but they violated that trust. Regardless of the reasons for doing that, they didn't keep his secret. What he told them was much less important to him than his ultimate secret. If they can't keep those smaller secrets, why can they keep the big one? For better or worse all of the other…

For some people that 'one person' is themselves. And those people aren't necessarily abused people with deep, dark secrets. To say that everyone has that person is a fallacy. The world rarely deals in absolutes.

That is true, it certainly is possible. I can't actually prove the absolute case.

But I do believe that it is much more probable that everyone has a personal outlet with whom they speak. Life is hard. (Can I even say that absolutely? Although completely foreign to me, I suppose there are people out there that don't have hardships in life.) People need to vent to someone, share some close or special with someone, and make a connection.

Without that people explode. This is one way people without that outlet explode.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#99

Post by 2oi03i9fhujcnd » Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 7:21 AM UTC

pyre wrote: post #97

2oi03i9fhujcnd wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't for the secret-listener to decide what is worthwhile to hold in confidence. A small secret shouldn't be disclosed just because the person that heard it thinks that it isn't worth keeping secret. Besides, I don't think contemporary community standards would consider coming out as gay as being a small secret. Generalizing further, it really isn't fair for me to classify any of these as big or small. One person…

> Besides, I don't think contemporary community standards > would consider coming out as gay as being a small secret. Well, I agree that coming out shouldn't be viewed as a small secret. Though I feel in the minds of a lot of people "something that are you are" is more likely to be fair game for rumor and ridicule than "something (especially a trauma) that has happened to you." I.e. confiding a tragedy/trauma to some…

Good point distinguishing between rumor mill and personal trauma.

I think that might only affect the number of people that are told, though. Rumor mill will spread like wildfire. Trauma will be told to one other person, and the one other person will probably keep it to himself.

It is possible that the first person won't disclose further. Bill seems to have made a general social commentary about finding that person is very difficult. He couldn't trust his family. He tried friends and that didn't work. Counselors wouldn't work.

How many people do you have to try? Many people say try until you die of natural causes. Others say this was enough.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#100

Post by haberman » Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 7:26 AM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #91

haberman wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think suicide is ever the only solution. What do you base this on? Wishful thinking about the capability of modern medicine? Or a belief that it's a person's duty to live through intolerable pain for the sake of others? > It fills me with so much sadness to think that there might be one who reads this and thinks .. 'yep, that was the right thing to do'. It annoys me that so many people will take a person wh…

> What do you base this on? Wishful thinking about the capability of modern medicine? It could be a personal belief, just like your belief that "he is free of this demons forever" or the fact that he somehow "found peace". I don't see anything wrong with someone believing that suicide is never a good solution. > It annoys me that so many people will take a person who finally found peace from a life of intolerable pai…

I perceive the earnestness in your remarks, and I appreciate that. I mistook your earlier comments as more judgmental than they actually were. Sorry about that.

When I was in college a girl who was a close friend of a close friend killed herself, and I remember experiencing the same kinds of regrets that you are expressing. Wasn't there anything else she could have done? Didn't she know how much people cared about her?

Since then I've experienced things that have given me a different perspective, namely how a person's mind can be a prison of pain that all the external love in the world is a weak opponent against. I feel like Bill captured that when he described how even a relationship with a wonderful person whom he liked very much was sabotaged by his "darkness."

Maybe there is a drug that could have given Bill peace in life, but reading his note I feel almost certain that nothing anyone could say or do would have soothed his torment.