RIP Bill Zeller • Hacker News Board

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#41

Post by bad_user » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 12:21 PM UTC

xatax wrote: post #35

yogipatel wrote: post #22

Wow. Having grown up abused by my own parents (in all ways except sexually), I identify with a lot of what he says. I used to think of suicide daily, now I just think of death. Counseling (sans drugs) is what helped me get there. It's good and bad now, but there's a positive trend. I think what saddens me most about this note is his experience with counseling professionals (though he does use the word doctor, so "cou…

I think what saddens me most about this note is his experience with counseling professionals I can relate to that part of the note. With one (minor?) exception, I've never seen a proper doctor about my issues, but I've been to a number of counselors over the years. Almost all of them have been completely useless to me, because I can clearly see that I'm not safe there. I think it's a bit like the situation Mr. Zeller…

One thing you have to realize is that a counselor/doctor is not your friend, but someone that helps you solve your problems with professional advice (level of competency varies of course).

Getting over any recurrent destructive mood is much like a war. First you need to go to war, then you need strategies, you need to work on it and there's going to be pain involved, with multiple battles won and lost.

Going to counseling is one way to do it, another would be medication, or support groups or just good friends that care. Either way you have to deal with it and it isn't warm and cozy.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#42

Post by lwhi » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 12:21 PM UTC

pvg wrote: post #39

noname123 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I for one, thought that it was quite positive thing and I respect his decision to take his own life. It was very well thought-out suicide note; I think most people are quite baffled by it because of the degree of author's rational explanations, extreme honesty and empathy for others in spite of his own pains. Also, he unintentionally perhaps shed light on programming which a lot of us could relate to, At times growin…

I for one, thought that it was quite positive thing How, really? Also, he unintentionally perhaps shed light on programming By killing himself? Like Bill Zeller, I retreated into programming Did you kill yourself? It's difficult to read what you have to say as anything but self-absorbed wankery but perhaps I've got it totally wrong.

I see your point - initially when I read the same, I thought that making reference to programming insight as a conclusion was a bit trite and insensitive.

I don't think the OP was trying to be insensitive - but it's not possible to take anything good from this act alone. The only possible positive thing that can result is increased personal understanding of the challenges that our own friends and acquaintances might be going through.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#43

Post by yogipatel » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 12:30 PM UTC

zackattack wrote: post #31

This might be a good time to mention that we are looking for volunteers for http://CompassionPit.com/ . It was created by people who have struggled with depression for most of their life. The other day someone commented about it, "I used CompassionPit for the first time this week. I really like the idea of it. Reminds me of when I reached out to an online videogame friend when I was 12 years old when I was super depr…

Nice idea. You've got mail.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#44

Post by xatax » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 12:44 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #41

xatax wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what saddens me most about this note is his experience with counseling professionals I can relate to that part of the note. With one (minor?) exception, I've never seen a proper doctor about my issues, but I've been to a number of counselors over the years. Almost all of them have been completely useless to me, because I can clearly see that I'm not safe there. I think it's a bit like the situation Mr. Zeller…

One thing you have to realize is that a counselor/doctor is not your friend, but someone that helps you solve your problems with professional advice (level of competency varies of course). Getting over any recurrent destructive mood is much like a war. First you need to go to war, then you need strategies, you need to work on it and there's going to be pain involved, with multiple battles won and lost. Going to couns…

One thing you have to realize is that a counselor/doctor is not your friend

For a person dealing with trust issues, this sort of realization shatters any chance of progress, at least in my personal experience.

I can't feel safe if I think I could say the wrong word and have the cops drag me off for questioning. That's why I never got anywhere with counseling. For a person with trust issues, it's extremely important that you feel safe in counseling since you're making yourself extremely vulnerable by exposing yourself to them.

I've since dealt with a lot of my issues on my own. I haven't hurt myself intentionally in over two years, and that was an anomaly. It had been over two years since I had last hurt myself at that point.

The point is that these aren't easy problems, and there are no easy solutions.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#45

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Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#46

Post by RP_Joe » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 12:57 PM UTC

Its a very sad story. Its a sad ending to a sad life. I have known many people with a horrible past. I cannot understand their pain. I cannot understand their depression because I have never experienced it. I can understand their desire to end it all. By observing and listening to their pain that goes on year after year, I can believe their life is very sad. When I was younger I wanted to become violent against the perpetrators of such crimes. Now that I am older, I realize this just adds to the problem. As a parent, his note is very revealing to me. A warning about how I could make mistakes with my children. I did not find it to intense. I am very grateful he took the time to explain everything. I am grateful he talked about his family. I will spend quit a bit of time thinking about his family and the mistakes they made. We can learn from his pain.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#47

Post by yogipatel » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 1:07 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #33

yogipatel wrote: post #22

Wow. Having grown up abused by my own parents (in all ways except sexually), I identify with a lot of what he says. I used to think of suicide daily, now I just think of death. Counseling (sans drugs) is what helped me get there. It's good and bad now, but there's a positive trend. I think what saddens me most about this note is his experience with counseling professionals (though he does use the word doctor, so "cou…

I think that what killed him is mistrusting other people. He said he never talked to nobody about his situation, but it's impossible to have a good relationship with a great secret like that. He mentions his darkness, but I don't think that's what ended his relationships. He also mentions counselors reading notes from previous sessions, but to me that's a sign they were doing their job properly; as they say "the devi…

I hear that in his words as well. It's as if he was scared that people with his secret could hurt him again somehow. I'd say that's understandable.

I've never had a counselor actually read notes in front of me. They do have notes, and they do read them, but not while we're in a session. When that happened to him I imagine he felt more like a patient than a peer (for lack of a better word). It's disappointing to me because that's what counselors are for — they're supposed to create an opportunity for someone like Bill to open up. It's clear to me he didn't like holding his trauma as a secret but was afraid of it being used against him somehow.

Relationships are just an escape. He was aware of himself enough to know that, which is (was) a good sign. Darkness like his allows you to feel like you're head over heels in love in one moment, and then in another wonder WTF the point is if we're just going to die anyway. It's as if it were a drug. And like a drug, its efficacy fades over time.

Good for you for being able to be honest and open about your problems! That takes balls.

One technique that's worked while I'm in a depressed state is to just expect & accept it. When I get into a funk and think about how all I do is feel depressed, I tell myself, "No shit Yogi, of course you're going to feel this way, look at all the crap you have to deal with". Those few words don't get rid of the sad feeling, but it helps me get past it. I feel like that's all most people need, a way to get on with it.

Even after years of therapy, I'm still amazed at how trained our brains can become. Unfortunately for many, that hard wiring forces them into a downward spiral, where from it's harder and harder to recover.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#48

Post by edw519 » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 1:13 PM UTC

Many thoughts that flashed through my mind as I read the suicide note, but I decided to file them all away and share only this old story:

The old town drunk died. His two sons, the bank president and the new town drunk were at his funeral. An onlooker, surprised at how different the two sons were, asked each one how he turned out the way he did.

The bank president responded, "With a father like that, how else could I turn out?"

The new town drunk responded, "With a father like that, how else could I turn out?"

FWIW, I am like the bank president. I have no idea why. All I know is that no matter whatever anyone ever did to me, it didn't matter. I have no idea if someone who turned out like the new town drunk can change (although I imagine it happens all the time). All I do know is that it is possible for a victim to succeed and overcome all of his "darkness".

If anyone has any history remotely close to OP's and is entertaining similar thoughts, feel free to contact me off-line. I will tell you right now what I'll respond with: absolutely nothing. Because I don't know what to tell you. I don't know how to become successful after being abused. But I do know that it's possible; I am living proof. Sometimes, just knowing that something is possible is enough to pursue it until you get it.

I'm truly sorry that OP's story ended like it did. Especially sorry because I know it could have been different. I just don't know how. Now no one will.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#49

Post by yogipatel » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 1:15 PM UTC

xatax wrote: post #35

yogipatel wrote: post #22

Wow. Having grown up abused by my own parents (in all ways except sexually), I identify with a lot of what he says. I used to think of suicide daily, now I just think of death. Counseling (sans drugs) is what helped me get there. It's good and bad now, but there's a positive trend. I think what saddens me most about this note is his experience with counseling professionals (though he does use the word doctor, so "cou…

I think what saddens me most about this note is his experience with counseling professionals I can relate to that part of the note. With one (minor?) exception, I've never seen a proper doctor about my issues, but I've been to a number of counselors over the years. Almost all of them have been completely useless to me, because I can clearly see that I'm not safe there. I think it's a bit like the situation Mr. Zeller…

My experience with counseling inclines me to say that you took fuck all out of the counseling, not the other way around. It sounds like your issue in high school wasn't just anger, it was anger that might hurt someone. That's a part of the problem that needs to be addressed, even if a counselor deems it necessary to report you.

But — obviously nothing is that black and white, especially not after just a few sentences of background information. Just as there are crap professors, there are crap counselors. If you ever give it another shot, I'd suggest seeing a few of them (first sessions can usually be free) and finding one you feel comfortable with.

I agree that it might not be the right place to get really deep into this. Feel free to email me.

Re: RIP Bill Zeller

#50

Post by khafra » Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 1:16 PM UTC

phuff wrote: post #18

Anothrowaway wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone going through the same thing and then witnessing the end result of it on this man isn't exactly positive reinforcement

The sad part is that there are people who can keep confidences. There are counselors who would keep his confidence. There are friends who would keep his confidence. I'm convinced there's probably even a girl out there who could love him enough for who he was to help him understand that even though the darkness was present her love was for him and was willing to deal with it's presence. If anything, this letter, and a…

This whole thing has been making me think: It'd be expensive as hell and not covered by medical insurance, and it sounds crazy, but I wonder if talking to a lawyer would've helped. A study I can no longer locate found that talking to any intelligent person who shows an interest is comparable to a professional therapist; and lawyers generally take the privacy of their clients very seriously.