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In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

nytimes.com

371–380 of 501 posts

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least part of the cause of the visible squalor we see in Seattle is that the tough-on-crime crowd has consistently opposed safe injection, harm reduction, trash pickup, housing-first, and other evidence-based policies in favor of expensive, inhumane, and pointless measures like sweeps and incarceration. Any measure the city government takes that is not overtly cruel gets slammed as coddling the homeless or "attrac…

I'm anti-incarceration for moral reasons, but it's not clear to me that there is a definitive consensus that incarceration does not work. See: https://www.nber.org/digest/jan02/w8489.html > "Annual expenditures of approximately $10 billion on drug incarceration almost pay for themselves through reductions in health care costs and lost productivity attributable to illegal drug use, even ignoring any crime reductions a…

I think the solution is transforming a segment of incarceration into medical help, or expanding medical conservatorship.

If you smell like crap and can't sustain a life because of drug addictions or mental illness, and your behavior causes problems for society, you need to be helped, and maybe against your will.

The vast majority of homeless are actually not visible and look like and act like normal people. They often get out of being homeless in a few years. It's the chronic homeless who need help, might always need help, that ruin the public space for everyone else.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have safe injection sites up here in Vancouver, you still find used needles lying around everywhere, depending where you go, only you also find the small saline packs and disposable spoons from the injection sites lying around with the used needles. The police don't really seem to care. I've watched a couple of officers find a small pile of used needles at one of the skytrain stations, they laughed to each other s…

Police just follow the lead of politicians. Seattle Police ignore just about everything except active shooters. Even emergency calls about homeless brandishing knives in broad daylight are ignored. (If someone does get stabbed, the police will show.) Seattle politicians have shown that they have no interest in keeping violent people off the streets, so the police don't waste their time with it.

> Seattle Police ignore just about everything except active shooters.

I've been away from Seattle for a while, so excuse me if it's changed. But I still remember quite well in 2010 when Seattle police gunned down a native american for crossing the street downtown, I think it was off of Howell. That guy used to ask me and my wife for change. His big crime was making a very young officer, I believe a recent arrival from the eastern part of the state, uncomfortable due to his skin color. Shot dead, in the back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_John_T._Williams

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#373
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people write responses like this I wonder if they’ve ever been to New York City. We don’t really have comparable problems. For me visiting LA, SF or Seattle is jaw dropping. I totally reject this idea that these situations are just inevitable.

That's just objectively wrong. NYC has a higher homeless population both in sheer volume and per 100,000 people. So what is NYC doing to stop the growth of their homeless population beyond making it out of sight and out of mind?

NYC has a right to shelter law. They also have enforcement of basic public space issues like camping and being in parks overnight, or petty street crime.

Those two things together are a good starting point for discussion.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#374
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me all of these issues seem like the same ones San Francisco is facing, which leads me to conclude that neither lowering income taxes nor raising income taxes is likely to solve them.

I've lived in both those cities this decade; the results are in some cases similar, but the issues are in fact different. The thing that's similar : both cities are warm enough so that you can reasonably live on the streets year round. Boston's an intensely liberal city and nobody uses it as an example of how liberal cities always have homeless problems. Similarly, Google "dallas homeless problem" sometime. Warm city…

Homelessness/drug use has indeed become a problem in Boston over the last few years - see [1]Methadone Mile and the problems in the [2]Common.

[1]https://apps.bostonglobe.com/graphics/2016/07/methadone-mile...

[2]https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/08/21/boston-common-jewel-...

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#375
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people say things like this, I do have to wonder if they've ever lived in a city before. Seattle's crime rate, like most American cities, has been steadily declining since the 1980s. There is just a certain amount of crime and drug use that will always exist in the big city. No amount of 'tough on crime' policing will make it go away.

When people write responses like this I wonder if they’ve ever been to New York City. We don’t really have comparable problems. For me visiting LA, SF or Seattle is jaw dropping. I totally reject this idea that these situations are just inevitable.

I agree, after living in NYC my jaw did drop when I got to Seattle. I found Seattle to be incredibly clean, open, and welcoming – far less dingy and polluted than where I lived in Manhattan. Green everywhere. Never felt unsafe or taken advantage of. Eventually I moved from NYC to Seattle, and I don't think I'd ever move back.

Since I've been here, over the past 8-ish years, the homeless problem hasn't (in my opinion) become much more of a problem so much as it's become much more of a political issue. It's hard for me to tell if drug use and violence are actually up, or if reporting is up. When I visited in 2011, we were looking at an apartment that was listed on 1st Ave in Pioneer Square. We were charmed by the tree-lined street and the quaint shops leading from the Fairmont downtown toward Pioneer Square, but when we turned toward Occidental Sq (maybe 8 or 9am) we were suddenly in a mass of transient/homeless peoples waking up on the cobblestone. There were dozens of people, rolling up sleeping backs, loading backpacks, congregating. This was before the food trucks and the Weyerhauser building and the tied down tables and chairs and open-air ping pong tables displaced them, and even though it was jarring it also felt humane in a weird way that there was a place, out of the way, where they could go and be undisturbed. Pioneer Square also, of course, is where most of the homeless help centers are located (clinics, food banks, shelters).

But as the city has grown denser and real estate developers continue to squeeze every ounce of oxygen out of the city, these people have nowhere to go so they are forced out of the margins and into everyone else's line of sight and that's really the problem. In NYC it's not such a big deal, because NYC is already acclimated to this density that the homeless problem there is simply ignored. The indifference I witnessed toward the homeless in NYC was crazy to me when I moved there at first from the 'burbs... people walking around a guy masturbating on the sidewalk as they hopped out of their cabs, moaning about the delays in the subway when a homeless person was killed in a subway tunnel or soiled a car in the middle of summer. If only all of the U.S. cities could just "look past" these people instead of focusing so much on what a drag it is to see someone begging for change on my way to have bottomless mimosas.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a good chapter to read to see their methodology even if you don't agree with the results. For example, comparing stricter/easier gun laws and prison times in different cities and not finding a correlation to the drop in violence since it was across the board.

Oh I've read it and am familiar with their argument, I just disagree. I don't think analyzing gun laws on a city by city basis makes a lot of sense, they're small, in high demand apparently, and easily smuggled from a more permissive locale. The abortion argument is just a pathway to IQ/some people are genetically more predisposed to being dumb & violent, etc. It's just a step on the way there. I hardly think I have…

" a pathway to IQ/some people are genetically " How did you come ot that conclusion? Much simpler option is on the table: parents mostly abort kkids when they know they don;t want them or can;t take care of them. Kids that are wanted, are much more likely to be properly brought up and not become criminals.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freakonomics makes a case the drop in crime is directly correlated with the passing of Roe VS Wade and the legalization of abortion. This led to the 18 year later drop in unwanted male children now adults. Very interesting read on a very explosive topic :)

His argument has been widely debunked, and subsequent followup found that Leavitt had a huge data error that way overstated his conclusion. I personally find the lead/crime argument to be much more convincing

"Widely debunked" is factually inaccurate. It has not been debunked at all. It is not popular and leads to a lot of emotional responses, and there was one particular mechnical error in a single table in the original paper (Foote and Goetz); it has been addressed by the authors and did not materially affect the basic analysis or high-level conclusion.

An independent study on the lead/crime hypothesis (impact of childhood lead exposure on criminality) came to a similar conclusion.[0] (Reyes is interviewed in the podcast linked below.) Finally, they recently published a 15-years on follow-up study, which showed continued support for the hypothesis.[1]

You can read a transcript of their most recent podcast on the subject here[2], or just go direct to the source material.

[0]: https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/get_the_lead_o...

[1]: https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/BFI_WP_201975.pd...

[2]: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/abortion/

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#378
post #58

Whoa. Using Seattle as a positive story in the war on drugs seems...highly questionable. The city has been essentially destroyed by junkie infestation, enabled by (possibly well-meaning) people.

Seattle is far from "destroyed." There are obviously issues, sure. But this smells like hyperbolic political rhetoric to me and I don't appreciate it.

All this sort of hyperbole does is breed hate for other human beings. Not what we need.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#379
Optics aside, it seems like the obvious solution is to give people a free supply of safe drugs and a safe place to use them.

Drug users would be better off because their supply would be safe and they wouldn't need to resort to crime to pay for it. Current supervised consumption sites have also been extremely successful at preventing overdose deaths and somewhat successful at directing users who want treatment to the available resources.

The public would be better off because of the same crime reduction, as well as the reduction of violence and disorder stemming from black markets for illegal drugs. Public use would become so much more of a hassle than the legal alternative that it would likely disappear.

The government would be better off because acquiring currently-illegal drugs legally is super cheap (most of them literally grow on trees, or at least plants), and is almost certainly vastly cheaper than the current prohibition strategy.

The obvious problems:

- No one is going to want a consumption site anywhere near their neighborhood. - Some number of people who would otherwise quit might continue to use if it were cheap and easy. - Something along the lines of "I'd love to sit around all day watching TV and drinking beer but I have bills to pay and I don't want my taxes paying for some low-life to get high."

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#380
post #38

The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. There is mention of the difficulties such lax policies has brought to the city, but they are waved away as being "growing pains" toward a new utopia. I can't say, living here, that I feel that the problem is solved. I view the needles outside my apartment as evidence to the co…

Wars can also be ended by surrender, which Vancouver BC did. I understand Seattle’s approach has been similar: Grant de facto immunity to homeless people committing petty crime, stop all police enforcement of drug laws, and shame everyone who dares to complain.

except governance is not a war, and unlike in a war you are concerned with well-being of your citizen and are not allowed to kill them... So really, just an empty soundbyte
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