In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs • Hacker News Board

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

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Post by Spooky23 » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

nikanj wrote: post #38

just_lurkin wrote: post #17

The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. There is mention of the difficulties such lax policies has brought to the city, but they are waved away as being "growing pains" toward a new utopia. I can't say, living here, that I feel that the problem is solved. I view the needles outside my apartment as evidence to the co…

Wars can also be ended by surrender, which Vancouver BC did. I understand Seattle’s approach has been similar: Grant de facto immunity to homeless people committing petty crime, stop all police enforcement of drug laws, and shame everyone who dares to complain.

That's happening all over. Statistics-based policing helps here. When you don't arrest people, your crime rate doesn't go up.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

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Post by rayiner » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

hash872 wrote: post #303

kenoyer130 wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freakonomics makes a case the drop in crime is directly correlated with the passing of Roe VS Wade and the legalization of abortion. This led to the 18 year later drop in unwanted male children now adults. Very interesting read on a very explosive topic :)

His argument has been widely debunked, and subsequent followup found that Leavitt had a huge data error that way overstated his conclusion. I personally find the lead/crime argument to be much more convincing

“Widely debunked” is too strong. They’ve released a new study where they double down on that conclusion: https://journalistsresource.org/studies/economics/abortion-c...

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

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Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

thomasmeeks wrote: post #274

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn’t this bad in the 90s or 80s, when crime was higher everywhere else. Relatively speaking, Seattle is worse off than it was before, which is a bit sad for the non transplants.

I dunno, the common refrain I hear from native Seattleites is that many places -- like Fremont, Ballard, and West Seattle, were truly awful in the 80s & 90s. Usually just at the mention of where I live, which is one of those neighborhoods. Compared to Orlando and Salt Lake City, Seattle feels about on par to me with regards to safety and the homeless problem (adjusted for the much higher population & density). Which…

I lived in all three of those places in the early 90s (as a UW student and with my aunt near Alaska Junction in West Seattle). No, at least then, they weren’t as bad, or bad at all.

Ballard? I’m not even sure where it being dangerous would come from, maybe getting run down by a bad Norwegian driver? Checkout Cops in Ballard: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hGlDVmBLibg

(Yes, that is Bill Nye)

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

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Post by kenoyer130 » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:45 PM UTC

hash872 wrote: post #303

kenoyer130 wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freakonomics makes a case the drop in crime is directly correlated with the passing of Roe VS Wade and the legalization of abortion. This led to the 18 year later drop in unwanted male children now adults. Very interesting read on a very explosive topic :)

His argument has been widely debunked, and subsequent followup found that Leavitt had a huge data error that way overstated his conclusion. I personally find the lead/crime argument to be much more convincing

It is a good chapter to read to see their methodology even if you don't agree with the results. For example, comparing stricter/easier gun laws and prison times in different cities and not finding a correlation to the drop in violence since it was across the board.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

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Post by thomasmeeks » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:48 PM UTC

fwip wrote: post #288

TheHypnotist wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was out there last fall, we stayed in Belltown and walked all over. I'm wondering, where was all this squalor you speak of? I came out with a very different impression of the city than you describe. Obviously you would know better, so I'm just wondering, did I get lucky?

I live in Seattle and take the bus to work downtown every day. I think I've seen, maybe three needles in five years.

I've lived in Seattle for 1.5 years. I became numb to the hyperbole around the homeless problem here in 6 months. One side is talking facts, experimentation, and trying new things. The other side is talking feelings, fears, and taking every misstep as an opportunity to abandon any notion of solving the problem in an ethical way.

It is really interesting, especially on a site like HN, because the latter is directly contrary to the ethos of most startups.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

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Post by md224 » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:49 PM UTC

Seattle should consider instituting Outpatient Commitment [1] if they haven't already... it could be a good middle ground between throwing addicts in jail and letting them walk free with no obligations.

Drug addiction is a health problem, not a criminal one, but decriminalizing only works in conjunction with a strong mental health care system; judging by the comments here, it sounds like Seattle might be lacking in that area (and they're probably not the only city with this problem).

Deinstitutionalization [2] was a good idea in theory, but the execution seems to have been botched.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outpatient_commitment

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

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Post by munificent » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:49 PM UTC

mieseratte wrote: post #142

Miner49er wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they have any mental hospitals to put him in. Locking people up in mental hospitals isn't much of a thing anymore.

Does Seattle / Washington not have anything? I live in one of those "poor Red states", and we absolutely do. I know a few folks who have been forcefully committed, though the common denominator seemed self-harm as opposed to harming passerby. Seems very odd Wilson managed to dodge both mental facilities and prisons.

> I know a few folks who have been forcefully committed

Long term? After the deinstitutionalization movement in the US, it's possible to get people forcibly committed for short term evaluations (a 72 hour "Baker Act" evaluation), but long term involuntary commitment is quite rare.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

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Post by thomascgalvin » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:50 PM UTC

sukilot wrote: post #197

thomascgalvin wrote: post #8

> In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs. It is relying less on the criminal justice toolbox to deal with hard drugs and more on the public health toolbox. America's puritanical urges result in more self-harm than anything else. So much of the way our nation is structured is based on some ancient idea that you have to live clean and work hard in order to get to heaven. That is combined with a sen…

The War of Drugs, like most things, is abused by the rich and powerful. But would you seriously look a Black mother or father in their face and tell her that her child is dead (and they are broke) because he freed himself from the oppressive Puritanical culture and enjoyed drugging himself to death and stealing their resources to feed his addiction?

My point is that those puritanical beliefs create grieving parents, because we seek to punish addicts instead of treating them.

America sees addiction as a moral failing which can be flagellated away, not as a medical condition requiring treatment.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

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Post by whateveracct » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:50 PM UTC

rdl wrote: post #58

Whoa. Using Seattle as a positive story in the war on drugs seems...highly questionable. The city has been essentially destroyed by junkie infestation, enabled by (possibly well-meaning) people.

Seattle is far from "destroyed." There are obviously issues, sure. But this smells like hyperbolic political rhetoric to me and I don't appreciate it.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

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Post by ndarwincorn » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:50 PM UTC

homonculus1 wrote: post #307

ndarwincorn wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Repeatedly letting criminals free to walk the streets That's a funny way of implying that everyone that the justice system imprisons are criminals in a world where we imprison 22% of the global incarcerated population despite accounting for 4% of the global total population[1]. Fear-based rhetoric around crime and the people who commit crimes* is not empathy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarcer…

My empathy is reserved for victims. I don't see how siding with antisocial actors and taking a permissive stance on crime is supposed to improve society. I literally can't understand the mindset of such a belief other by applying hipster contrarianism to morality.

My empathy is reserved for victims of the prison industrial complex (that includes your concept of victims, btw). I do see how your sort of hardline dehumanization of undesirables...sorry, 'tough on crime'...approach in the latter half of the 20th century has resulted in many of the problems being discussed in this thread.

I'm a felon that committed a crime and violated my probation a year after my original sentencing (I've since discharged my sentence). My crime was almost killing my passengers and myself in a drunken single-vehicle collision when I was 19. My violation was being a drunk passenger on my 21st birthday, after the designated driver was pulled over for simple lane violations (right/left turns into far lanes). They were let go with a warning, and I was taken to jail. If I didn't come from the privileged background I do, I could very well still be in prison today.

I'm a contrarian hipster, don't get me wrong, but I come by this empathy honestly. I empathize with your fear too, but I'm telling you to get over it because it only makes the problems you fear worse.