Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#541

Post by acangiano » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:37 PM UTC

fortran77 wrote: post #455

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression has not been that the memo is when political discussions turned toxic, but merely the first time it very publicly breached the sacred wall of non-disclosure with the outside world. Prior to that, most everyone seemed content to be upset with each other internally.

And they never punished the woman who leaked that internal memo. I thought that memo was foolish and short-sighted. I don't agree with it. However, it would have been better solved by a manager first asking him "do you really think it's a good idea to post this at work?" and having him tone it down than trying to publicly shame him and get him fired. Google picked the wrong side on that. They should have made an exam…

> it would have been better solved by a manager asking him "do you really think it's a good idea to post this at work?"

Are you aware that Google solicited that feedback?

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#542

Post by nullc » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:37 PM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #198

Analemma_ wrote: post #53

I think this was inevitable in the long run. From the very beginning, Google has tried to have the atmosphere of a college campus rather than a normal workplace, probably (at least in the early days before every tech company started doing this) to help them stand out among job applicants as an alternative to stuffier companies. The thing is though, professional work environments (where there are typically norms aroun…

> The thing is though, professional work environments (where there are typically norms around never discussing politics) are the way they are for a reason. The reason is the same as for not talking about salary at work: To prevent workers from developing class consciousness.

That's just a 'bonus'.

We don't talk about politics or religion at work for the same reason that we use money instead of barter.

If we only used barter we could only trade when we could find matching goods/services between trading partners, by using money instead we avoid the matching.

If you discuss politics at work you risk a situation where some people cannot work together because of incompatible views which are essentially irrelevant to the work being performed.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#543

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:38 PM UTC

jachee wrote: post #509

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful that you do not want to deny their whole existence in return. The example given was a gay person who encounters someone (a Muslim, say) who thinks they should be sentenced to death. But if the gay person decides in response that Islam should be eradicated, that's (at a minimum) cultural genocide. Note well: I am not an apologist for Islam. I consider their theology to be wrong. But in opposing them, don't…

There's a significant difference between an ideology and an identity. Eliminating the former is not genocide, eliminating the latter is. Why—whenever the question of hate comes up—is HN so quick to rise to the defense of the hateful?

> There's a significant difference between an ideology and an identity.

I suspect that many Muslims consider that to be their identity, not just their ideology.

> Why—whenever the question of hate comes up—is HN so quick to rise to the defense of the hateful?

Because I'm hateful (to at least somebody). And so are you. We don't defend the hateful because the hateful are so wonderful. We don't defend them because we agree with them. We defend them because we're defending us some time down the road.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#544

Post by manigandham » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:38 PM UTC

jgunsch wrote: post #448

oppositelock wrote: post #187

I worked at Google for quite a while, 2005-2013, and even then, the internal political discussion was pretty toxic, but a lot smaller in scope since there are far fewer people. There were definitely groups meant for discussing politics, and loudmouths like me willingly participated in those - however, it was very uncivil. There was a majority view in the company, and if anyone didn't agree with the majority view, the…

I worked there for a similar length of time, but more recent (2012 - early 2019). The internal political discourse over that time definitely mirrored the rest of the world: becoming increasingly heated and divisive during 2016 and largely escalating since. On the whole, it felt like it pushed the company in a positive direction --- internal discussions mirroring #metoo led to more visibility of sexual harassment and…

> "Google is far too large and influential"

This is precisely why these discussions should be limited and isolated to groups who need to specifically work on them for products.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#545

Post by ineedasername » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

Avoiding topics that are not work related and are likely to make a large group of co-workers angry seems like an obvious, professional thing to do, regardless of the specific policies of the workplace.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#546

Post by herostratus101 » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #479

jgunsch wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked there for a similar length of time, but more recent (2012 - early 2019). The internal political discourse over that time definitely mirrored the rest of the world: becoming increasingly heated and divisive during 2016 and largely escalating since. On the whole, it felt like it pushed the company in a positive direction --- internal discussions mirroring #metoo led to more visibility of sexual harassment and…

> The discourse around the James Damore memo, as divisive as it was, felt like it still led to a broader understanding of the negative perspectives women in tech had to deal with constantly. Damore was fired for his contributions to this "conversation". Hardly just. > particularly the ones who felt it was worth staying and using their influence internally to push Google toward creating a more just world. How about ju…

I largely agree with you.

But I also care a lot about the politics of Google employees insofar as they exercise a tremendous amount of influence over both elections and people's ability to broadcast their messages to the world.

Since Googlers tend to veer decidedly towards one end of the political spectrum, I would like to see their ability to censor speech restricted as much as is technologically possible.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#547

Post by SamReidHughes » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:40 PM UTC

jshowa3 wrote: post #487

oppositelock wrote: post #187

I worked at Google for quite a while, 2005-2013, and even then, the internal political discussion was pretty toxic, but a lot smaller in scope since there are far fewer people. There were definitely groups meant for discussing politics, and loudmouths like me willingly participated in those - however, it was very uncivil. There was a majority view in the company, and if anyone didn't agree with the majority view, the…

In most states, political discussion in the work place is considered illegal. California has some odd laws though that protect people from this.

Two odd laws, actually. The federal and state constitutions.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#548

Post by dr_dshiv » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #298

oppositelock wrote: post #187

I worked at Google for quite a while, 2005-2013, and even then, the internal political discussion was pretty toxic, but a lot smaller in scope since there are far fewer people. There were definitely groups meant for discussing politics, and loudmouths like me willingly participated in those - however, it was very uncivil. There was a majority view in the company, and if anyone didn't agree with the majority view, the…

I worked at Google for quite a while, 2005-2013, and even then, the internal political discussion was pretty toxic, but a lot smaller in scope since there are far fewer people. It sounds like the work culture at Google has rediscovered the emergent factors which gave rise to the traditional cultural strictures against talking about money, politics, and religion. Good science is repeatable. Given that Google is arguab…

I kinda wish this was about out of control religious debates.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#549

Post by SllX » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #415

stcredzero wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at Google for quite a while, 2005-2013, and even then, the internal political discussion was pretty toxic, but a lot smaller in scope since there are far fewer people. It sounds like the work culture at Google has rediscovered the emergent factors which gave rise to the traditional cultural strictures against talking about money, politics, and religion. Good science is repeatable. Given that Google is arguab…

My tenure overlapped ('06 - '10) and the discussions were lively. There were (and probably still are) interesting meta-terms like 'centathread' which was a topic that had received >= 100 replies (the gmail threading limit at the time). That said, the change in policy (what is cited at least) reads a bit like "Let's create air cover for management actions to separate trouble makers from the company." Where trouble mak…

There’s a decent chance this centuries old authoritarian method, which is more like millennia old, is actually the best way of dealing with it.

Humans are more or less the same as a few millennia ago. Our technology is more advanced, we’ve more or less covered every corner of the planet, we have birthed billions of humans and built millions of organizations of every stripe, and dealt with as many management issues as there were and are people.

We haven’t significantly advanced in our cognitive capabilities, we’ve just learned how to outsource more to experts and computers. If there’s one difference between us and us a few millennia ago, it would be that there are so many more humans on the planet that we probably don’t have a role in society for everyone. Under, e.g. a feudal System, every person had a functional role, and those that didn’t could at least point a spear in more or less the correct orientation. Vagrants of course were prosecuted and often pressed into service doing something somewhere for somebody.

In 2018, Google had ~99K full time employees. That’s larger than most cities, and historically, most countries. At that scale, you eventually need to tell most of them sit down, shut up and fall in line. Check their problems at the door, and if they really really need to fight about something, do it off premises on their off time without company resources, just to keep the peace.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#550

Post by username90 » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

crooked-v wrote: post #459

magashna wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It must be exhausting to have this mindset. Sometimes a story is just a story, a joke is just a joke, and there isn't a me vs you argument to be had.

Give me a joke and I'll point out the politics inherent in it.

Why is 6 afraid of 7? Because 7 8 9.