Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#491

Post by cynoclast » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:11 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #298

oppositelock wrote: post #187

I worked at Google for quite a while, 2005-2013, and even then, the internal political discussion was pretty toxic, but a lot smaller in scope since there are far fewer people. There were definitely groups meant for discussing politics, and loudmouths like me willingly participated in those - however, it was very uncivil. There was a majority view in the company, and if anyone didn't agree with the majority view, the…

I worked at Google for quite a while, 2005-2013, and even then, the internal political discussion was pretty toxic, but a lot smaller in scope since there are far fewer people. It sounds like the work culture at Google has rediscovered the emergent factors which gave rise to the traditional cultural strictures against talking about money, politics, and religion. Good science is repeatable. Given that Google is arguab…

> money, politics, and religion.

when did money sneak into that list?

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#492

Post by dang » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:11 PM UTC

SkyBelow wrote: post #64

>I think they just overestimated the ability of their employees to respect each other when they hold differing world views. I think this can be quite difficult to do just because of the political views involved. For example, how should a gay man respect a colleague who honestly thinks that homosexuality should be punished with death. In such a case, I would say that even asking the first individual to tolerate, much…

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20779265.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#493

Post by patcon » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:11 PM UTC

jonas21 wrote: post #413

stcredzero wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at Google for quite a while, 2005-2013, and even then, the internal political discussion was pretty toxic, but a lot smaller in scope since there are far fewer people. It sounds like the work culture at Google has rediscovered the emergent factors which gave rise to the traditional cultural strictures against talking about money, politics, and religion. Good science is repeatable. Given that Google is arguab…

> Good science is repeatable. Given that Google is arguably an intellectually friendly environment, where more people than average understand how to talk in ways that get closer to truth, the inadvertent experiment conducted by Google over the past 15 years or so should hold a lot of weight. But what conclusion should be drawn from this experiment? During those years, Google grew into a large and profitable company,…

Yep, feels like there's a bias in here. The "big experiment" that is on our radar (which is supposedly proving that free culture is a liability after all) is only big and on our radar to discuss because it reached such success compared to other companies (and it grew under those same conditions we're maybe implying are being proved wrongheaded?)

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#494

Post by buboard » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

> disrupting the workday to have a raging debate over politics or the latest news story does not,

Why do googlers engage in this at work? They don't feel their political conversations deserve a wider audience? Or do they feel the wider audience does not deserve their political conversations ?

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#495

Post by triceratops » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

maxaf wrote: post #371

munk-a wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting point - especially when it comes to the urgency a lot of people feel when considering climate change. I feel like part of the partisan leak into the workplace might be due to the lack of responsible governance that most Americans are feeling right now - since the entities responsible for fixing the big problems are out to lunch everyone is feeling a need to try and help solve those problems them…

Most of this political fervor is simple grandstanding. If these people really, truly cared about the issues they advocate, they'd have abandoned their cushy jobs at Google and gone on to make a real difference. I fully agree that the American consumerist lifestyle has run its course, and has done tremendous damage to the planet. However, those who yell the most loudly about it should also be the ones to quit it first…

> they'd have abandoned their cushy jobs at Google and gone on to make a real difference...Go live on a self-sustaining farm in Montana and show the rest of us how it's done

There are plenty of examples of people doing this. It hasn't made a lick of difference. No one listens to a lonely voice out in the middle of nowhere.

Maybe people work at "cushy" jobs so they can make money and donate it. Or influence their company to do the right thing, rather than the profitable thing. These things really do make a difference. For example, Google has been carbon-neutral since 2007.[1] Surely that has been influential for other companies.

1. https://www.wired.com/story/how-google-keeps-power-hungry-op...

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#496

Post by brodouevencode » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:15 PM UTC

mieseratte wrote: post #217

oppositelock wrote: post #187

I worked at Google for quite a while, 2005-2013, and even then, the internal political discussion was pretty toxic, but a lot smaller in scope since there are far fewer people. There were definitely groups meant for discussing politics, and loudmouths like me willingly participated in those - however, it was very uncivil. There was a majority view in the company, and if anyone didn't agree with the majority view, the…

> What seems to be happening a lot lately is that politics are spilling over into large, global mailing lists Interestingly there are people in this very thread claiming "everything is politics."

Hilariously too, they're agreeing with Rush Limbaugh: https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2014/08/05/everything_is_...

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#497

Post by techrich » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:16 PM UTC

oppositelock wrote: post #187

I worked at Google for quite a while, 2005-2013, and even then, the internal political discussion was pretty toxic, but a lot smaller in scope since there are far fewer people. There were definitely groups meant for discussing politics, and loudmouths like me willingly participated in those - however, it was very uncivil. There was a majority view in the company, and if anyone didn't agree with the majority view, the…

Sounds like children to me.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#498

Post by jshowa3 » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:16 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #479

jgunsch wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked there for a similar length of time, but more recent (2012 - early 2019). The internal political discourse over that time definitely mirrored the rest of the world: becoming increasingly heated and divisive during 2016 and largely escalating since. On the whole, it felt like it pushed the company in a positive direction --- internal discussions mirroring #metoo led to more visibility of sexual harassment and…

> The discourse around the James Damore memo, as divisive as it was, felt like it still led to a broader understanding of the negative perspectives women in tech had to deal with constantly. Damore was fired for his contributions to this "conversation". Hardly just. > particularly the ones who felt it was worth staying and using their influence internally to push Google toward creating a more just world. How about ju…

Damore was fired for his contributions to this conversation". Hardly just.*

According to what you said in this post, It was completely just as Damore basically wrote a dissertation about things that were completely unrelated to any work done for any Google product. All that work would've been tantamount to a complete waste of company time and could be grounds for a firing.

Google users don't care at all about the politics of Google employees

I care a great deal about how Google employees or any employee at any company are treated. You should too since most people spend their lives at companies and policies and laws surrounding them impact people directly.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#499

Post by cco » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:16 PM UTC

new2628 wrote: post #436

stcredzero wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a fine approach, but unfortunately politics creeps into more and more aspects of life. Do a historical survey of people who tried to suffuse politics completely through the lives of their followers. For completeness, look also at the actions of religions in the same way. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Politics, movements of any kind which demand the entirety of the lives of their…

I surely enjoy wild associations as much as the next guy, but I meant more pedestrian topics such as: - are you eating meat or are you vegetarian? - do you take a car to work or ride a bike or take public transportation? - do you drink tap water or bottled water? - do you send your kids to private or public school? Now try discussing any of these in depth "without politics".

These are all very easy to discuss at work without politics. You ask, "Do you have any dietary restrictions? If so you should make sure to read the menu closely, it'll tell you what the dish contains."

There, now I know as much as I need to about my coworker's diet. We're here to work and if you're going to be a member of a _diverse_ community with a shared goal you're going to need to accept that other people live their lives differently than yours and that's ok. I don't need to know the reason my coworker is a vegetarian I just need to let them know if my cookies that I brought to work contain animal products.

If you refuse to get along the result will be internal strife and the shared goal, a successful company, a working community, etc. will fail.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#500

Post by einhverfr » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 7:17 PM UTC

Excel_Wizard wrote: post #486

einhverfr wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the EU, freedom from discrimination on the basis of political opinion is considered a fundamental right, and is mentioned as such in the European Charter of Fundamental Rights. Private conversations about politics thus is entirely outside the scope of what the company is allowed to care about. Public comments, for example on global email lists, would be a different topic.

Political opinion is a very strange protected class, and protection of it seems unenforceable to me.

The issue was that tying political opinion to jobs was what the Fascists did in the 1930s. So it's kind of a "Never Again" category. It isn't entirely enforceable but companies cannot use it to fire people based on private conversations about politics. This has come up a few times where I work actually and the answer is the same. That's off the table.