In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs • Hacker News Board

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#221

Post by allana » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 6:38 PM UTC

entropea wrote: post #83

empath75 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people say things like this, I do have to wonder if they've ever lived in a city before. Seattle's crime rate, like most American cities, has been steadily declining since the 1980s. There is just a certain amount of crime and drug use that will always exist in the big city. No amount of 'tough on crime' policing will make it go away.

This is exactly it. It's almost totally a non-issue. I see orange needle caps and the occasional needle, but these junkies aren't attacking everyone, in fact you can just ignore them. I walk around in a dress downtown and on cap hill with zero issues. Never been attacked, assaulted, nothing. They lay in parks on cardboard and trash, but...so? Are they doing anything illegal? Comfortable salaried people love to make a…

We do steam clean the streets in Downtown Seattle (and have been doing that for decades), its part of why Seattle is so much cleaner than other cities.

Our new Park Ambassadors are here to help make the parks more inviting to be in: https://downtownseattle.org/about/careers/park-ambassador-pa...

The root issue, severe wealth stratification leading to hopelessness and escapism via drugs is something no city can address on its own.

We need national policy change to provide opportunities for the majority of Americans. Short of that, this problem will continue :c

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#222

Post by gwbas1c » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 6:38 PM UTC

diydsp wrote: post #52

phil248 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does confiscating an addict's heroin accomplish? As far as I can tell, all you've done is make a desperate addict far more desperate than they were a moment ago. The situation is only made worse.

One could say it incentivizes them to keep it at home, out of view of minors.

> One could say it incentivizes them to keep it at home, out of view of minors.

Where do you expect homeless (and mentally ill) people to do their drugs?

The issue is far more complicated then that.

I don't think we have the political will to round up a bunch of homeless people and criminals and take care of them in a humane manner. We probably can't even agree on what is considered a humane and ethical way to take care of homeless and mentally ill people who probably don't want to be confined to treatment against their will.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#223

Post by downandout » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 6:38 PM UTC

allana wrote: post #208

downandout wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvoting is against the site’s policy? Why does the downvote button exist then?

Downvoting (from what I gather) is supposed to be used not as a disagree button, but rather as a tool when a comment doesn't add value to a conversation, hence why downvotes are so restricted on HN.

I think you have a misunderstanding of this issue. If that’s the case, essentially every downvote I have ever received was an “abuse” of the feature.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#224

Post by rdtwo » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 6:39 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #178

xenocyon wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least part of the cause of the visible squalor we see in Seattle is that the tough-on-crime crowd has consistently opposed safe injection, harm reduction, trash pickup, housing-first, and other evidence-based policies in favor of expensive, inhumane, and pointless measures like sweeps and incarceration. Any measure the city government takes that is not overtly cruel gets slammed as coddling the homeless or "attrac…

Tough on crimes folks oppose trash pick-up? Really?

I think it’s more of a liability problem. Once the city starts garbage cleaning the city becomes exposed to liability from the encampment because it can be argued that its sanctioned now.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

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Post by jyrkesh » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 6:39 PM UTC

xenocyon wrote: post #173

just_lurkin wrote: post #17

The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. There is mention of the difficulties such lax policies has brought to the city, but they are waved away as being "growing pains" toward a new utopia. I can't say, living here, that I feel that the problem is solved. I view the needles outside my apartment as evidence to the co…

At least part of the cause of the visible squalor we see in Seattle is that the tough-on-crime crowd has consistently opposed safe injection, harm reduction, trash pickup, housing-first, and other evidence-based policies in favor of expensive, inhumane, and pointless measures like sweeps and incarceration. Any measure the city government takes that is not overtly cruel gets slammed as coddling the homeless or "attrac…

I had a conversation with someone the other day who made many of the same arguments as you. I agreed with some of it--namely that around safe injection, harm reduction, methadone (et al) clinics, etc.--but I had a hard time stomaching the idea that "housing first" was a good idea, in that if you take a drug addict and put them in a home, they're still a drug addict who can't contribute meaningfully to society.

Would you mind pointing to some of those studies/evidence so I can be a little more informed about the whole thing?

EDIT: Found one further down, but would love to see any others you have: https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.94.4...

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#226

Post by pnw_hazor » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 6:40 PM UTC

mieseratte wrote: post #142

Miner49er wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they have any mental hospitals to put him in. Locking people up in mental hospitals isn't much of a thing anymore.

Does Seattle / Washington not have anything? I live in one of those "poor Red states", and we absolutely do. I know a few folks who have been forcefully committed, though the common denominator seemed self-harm as opposed to harming passerby. Seems very odd Wilson managed to dodge both mental facilities and prisons.

Not odd at all in Seattle. Repeat homeless/junkie offenders around these parts have dozens of prior arrests or convictions. They have been arrested so many times that they know how to work the system. They are untouchable.

The guy who stabbed people at 10am in front of the Nordstroms downtown flagship store, took several steps to evade capture, hide weapons, etc. All indications that he knew he was committing a crime when he stabbed his victims.

Then when the jig was up (as police closed in on him) he stripped his clothes off so we get the "naked man" headline.

Why would he strip his clothes off? Sounds like he was taking deliberate steps to increase the likelihood of being found mentally incompetent knowing that local prosecutors tend to dismiss such cases.

Also, Seattle's city prosecutor and head public defender jointly and publicly admonished a judge that refused to release one of these career criminals when requested to by the prosecutor.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

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Post by BryantD » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 6:41 PM UTC

throwaway827364 wrote: post #35

psychometry wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supervised consumption sites would go a long way toward fixing the needle problem.

How? Junkies and other folks who throw needles on the street when there’s a trash can like 5 feet away will actually make appointments to stop at these consumption sites? Who pays for this? The city of Seattle makes a mess because of their extremist policies of not enforcing laws so let’s raise taxes to make up for it?

It's always amusing to me to hear people complain about taxes in Seattle. Washington State doesn't have an income tax, y'all. If you haven't figured out that a lot of the weird (and bad) city tax issues arise from that, welp.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#228

Post by fiter » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 6:43 PM UTC

sukilot wrote: post #177

nostromo wrote: post #15

... this is probably news to people actually living in Seattle. (Edit: the title was originally, "Seattle Has Figured Out How to End the War on Drugs") A place where meth heads attack people with pitchforks in the street a few days after being released from prison on a suspended sentence. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/man-accused-... Not to mention our random piles of used syringes, which are often…

If crime is determined by victimhood: > public intoxication not an "actual crime" > public camping seeking shelter is not an "actual crime" > shop lifting is an "actual crime" > harassment is an "actual crime"

I think there are victims for public camping but people will argue about the severity of the victimization. For example, I have to step off the sidewalk into the street in order to get by a set of tents.

Agreed on public intoxication.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#229

Post by derefr » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 6:43 PM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #73

malandrew wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and shame everyone who dares to complain. And then watch at they turn on you by quietly voting for your opponents in greater and greater numbers as the problem worsens.

... or fleeing to suburbs...

Vancouver's homeless have largely fled to the suburbs too! (Maple Ridge, mostly.) I guess the cost of living is so high here that even those who aren't paying rent still can't afford it.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

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Post by itsyaboi » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 6:43 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #168

grogenaut wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seattle, part of Washington, actually has concealed carry as legal. There is no duty to retreat either, no real different than any "gun friendly" state. So your point is invalid. Anyone can have loaded carry pistol, this shows you to be pointless in this example. I assume you're just trying to troll and failing badly.

Yes, but Seattle being Seattle it is not populated by the kind of people who will pack heat. That's like saying "well Austin is part of Texas so why doesn't everyone wear a cowboy hat and go hog hunting on the weekend." Both those cities are basically San Fransisco demographically speaking. And just because concealed carry legal doesn't mean the process is constructed in such a way that normal people can actually do…

Isn't Washington a open carry state?