Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#351

Post by EpicEng » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:36 PM UTC

dvtrn wrote: post #104

EpicEng wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really the crux of the issue. I agree that people should probably leave most of their personal beliefs at home... unless it's something that directly related to what the company is doing. So Google employees are supposed to just shut up or leave?

So Google employees are supposed to just shut up or leave? An important question, I think. It would seem some think they should, and some probably think they should do both. Brings to mind the attitude of "shutup and play ball" when sports athletes try to use their platforms for some aspect of social change or another. An attitude I find personally disheartening, but I'll stop there because these discussions never en…

>Brings to mind the attitude of "shutup and play ball" when sports athletes try to use their platforms for some aspect of social change or another.

But even then there's a difference; NFL players aren't protesting the actions of the NFL. If Google employees were using their position to push some agenda the company did not agree with and had nothing to do with then I'd agree.

It's certainly within Google's rights to take a "shut up and work" position, but I don't imagine it will work out well for them in the long run.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#352

Post by carapace » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:36 PM UTC

ashwinaj wrote: post #133

Finally common sense prevails! Get to work on time, eat your free lunch, work, go home. To those of you who disagree; if you want to "make a difference" take a cue from Gandhi, Mandela, Martin Luther king Jr. etc. Mahama Gandhi didn't work for the East India company while simultaneously fighting for freedom. If you are serious about it put your money where your mouth is and stop being empty vessels.

> Mahama Gandhi didn't work for the East India company while simultaneously fighting for freedom.

LOL!

I worked at Google for about two years as a "TVC" (a programmer in a cubical, not a "real" Googler) and it was like being kidnapped by aliens, after I left that's how it felt: Like I was one of those people who had just been returned to Earth.

One thing that doesn't get talked about in re: Google and values: there's an entire "underclass" of employees that are of definite inferior status. The janitors, re-stockers of cafes, and maintenance people, etc. They wear special uniforms, and are trained not to fraternize with the "real" Googlers. They don't get to ride the fancy buses to and from work.

They are also of a different racial mix. Googlers are generally white or Asian but the staff are generally Hispanic. So there's politics, and then there's politics...

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#353

Post by NathanKP » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

azffz wrote: post #149

sp332 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@Pinboard (yes the pinboard.com guy) has been keeping track of political donations from big tech companies. https://twitter.com/Pinboard/status/1141838179936243714

What are the chances he has only been tracking donations made to right-wing groups? :') Edit: very high, it seems https://twitter.com/search?q=from%3Apinboard%20PAC

Yeah so far from what I've seen all the big tech companies PAC's give with roughly 50/50 distribution of funds between left and right wing politicians. Whether that is good or bad is up to your own judgement. Personally I stopped donating to my company's PAC because I want more control of who my donations go to, but from what I've seen the corporate PAC's are all pretty well balanced.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#354

Post by tyrust » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #46

BurningFrog wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they have work to do. That's why they're there.

Exactly. If I'm working on a team that is rolling out a new Google drive feature, I really don't need to hear you talk about why drinking straws are a phallic symbol and used by the patriarchy to keep woman down. We have work to do.

No one is preventing you from working.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#355

Post by nostrademons » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #298

oppositelock wrote: post #187

I worked at Google for quite a while, 2005-2013, and even then, the internal political discussion was pretty toxic, but a lot smaller in scope since there are far fewer people. There were definitely groups meant for discussing politics, and loudmouths like me willingly participated in those - however, it was very uncivil. There was a majority view in the company, and if anyone didn't agree with the majority view, the…

I worked at Google for quite a while, 2005-2013, and even then, the internal political discussion was pretty toxic, but a lot smaller in scope since there are far fewer people. It sounds like the work culture at Google has rediscovered the emergent factors which gave rise to the traditional cultural strictures against talking about money, politics, and religion. Good science is repeatable. Given that Google is arguab…

I remember the Founder's Letter included with Google's IPO in 2004 - "Google is not a traditional company. We do not intend to become one." It looks like they became one.

The other interesting takeaway for me is how long-term equilibria can leave holes that may be exploited by short-term-focused actors. When Google was young, it's say-anything culture was a big competitive advantage: it let them hire people who were nearly unhireable elsewhere because they were too free with their opinions or too difficult to work with, and it let people be more open about their emotions, which is a prerequisite for creativity. Many of these people were immensely productive, building key systems. But as Google grew, this same culture would've led to the destruction of the company, so eventually management is forced to clamp down on it. Not before making the founders and many employees fabulously wealthy and reshaping the industry, though.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#356

Post by kortilla » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

damnyou wrote: post #313

the-pigeon wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For profit companies should not choose sides. Google's only discussion of politics in the workplace should be on how to make their systems be as unbiased as possible.

The problem with statements like this is that not choosing sides is exactly as political as choosing sides. There is no such thing as ignoring politics — it's an essential part of the human experience, so any organization must grapple with it.

No it’s not. Where did this stupid notion come from that everything neatly fits into two sides

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#357

Post by stcredzero » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

ashwinaj wrote: post #133

Finally common sense prevails! Get to work on time, eat your free lunch, work, go home. To those of you who disagree; if you want to "make a difference" take a cue from Gandhi, Mandela, Martin Luther king Jr. etc. Mahama Gandhi didn't work for the East India company while simultaneously fighting for freedom. If you are serious about it put your money where your mouth is and stop being empty vessels.

if you want to "make a difference" take a cue from Gandhi, Mandela, Martin Luther king Jr. etc

To elaborate the examples/options:

1) Become a lawyer -- Real change can be enacted through legislation and litigation. Knowing how the law works is power in this context.

2) Be involved in politics -- Again, real change can be enacted through legislation. This doesn't just mean running for office. One of my ex-girlfriends' step-fathers worked at a juvenile halfway house, and he regularly acted as an unpaid lobbyist. I have another friend who has also acted as an unpaid lobbyist for environmental causes. Anyone can do it. It's just a matter of being articulate, preparing, and having the time. (Also, everyone knows that lots of paid lobbyists are basically like mercenaries, so if your sincerity comes through and you know your stuff, there will be people open to your alternative take.)

3) Public speaking and writing -- All of the above did that.

Also, with regards to 2 and 3, do this in the larger community, outside of your workplace. This makes your activism a pull for people, instead of a push. Just imagine if people of _political_party_you_dont_like_ started to get involved in committees at your job and started to foist their particular beliefs on you there in the form of policies. It's not a big stretch to see how that could be interpreted as a subtle form of political attack, through the sensitive area of one's livelihood. It's easy to see how that can close minds, where otherwise there might have been a chance to convince, instead of coerce.

This brings me to number 4:

4) Convince. Don't coerce. -- In particular, in the startup community, we should know that getting people to pull can work much better than a push, which can even elicit a backlash.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#358

Post by carapace » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:38 PM UTC

rubberstock wrote: post #58

Since this is google, it is getting interesting: >organizations which design systems ... are constrained to produce designs which are copies of the communication structures of these organizations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law

The internal codebase at Google is organized like a bazaar.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#359

Post by dekhn » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:38 PM UTC

arrrg wrote: post #220

Kalium wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tolerance isn't considered a virtue because it's easy. Tolerance is a virtue because it's difficult . It requires us to put up with people who may adhere to worldviews we find utterly alien or hold views we find abhorrent. It's easy to come up with an example and find yourself thinking "It's unreasonable to tolerate that!". Instead, consider asking yourself why people a century ago might tolerate views you think of a…

Tolerance of someone who wants to deny your whole existence is not something anyone should ever tolerate. That‘s not a virtue, that‘s madness and potentially suicidal.

I've concluded the opposite- you have to tolerate even people who want to kill you. While simultaneously preparing for and preventing war.

This is sort of the lesson of Europe from the 30 years war to doay.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#360

Post by lern_too_spel » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:39 PM UTC

ashwinaj wrote: post #133

Finally common sense prevails! Get to work on time, eat your free lunch, work, go home. To those of you who disagree; if you want to "make a difference" take a cue from Gandhi, Mandela, Martin Luther king Jr. etc. Mahama Gandhi didn't work for the East India company while simultaneously fighting for freedom. If you are serious about it put your money where your mouth is and stop being empty vessels.

The East India Company analogy doesn't fit. Google doesn't have a private army to subjugate the countries it trades with. Gandhi working at some other company might be a better fit, but even that isn't a good analogy. A lot of these people don't see themselves as Gandhis, Kings, Mandelas, etc. but only as their followers, who did have regular day jobs.