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Why the Amazon Is on Fire

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Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#51

Post by emiliobumachar »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #7
rsaraceni wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brazilian here. In fact, he rejects the term. Some people of his staff deny global warming and he is known for lying and using fake science to justify absurd measures, like removing most of the environmental protection in favor of agriculture. Even rejecting the title, he is known like "Captain Chainsaw" and many others nicknames, most of them mocking him. Unfortunately, in Brazil, our people have a taste for populis…

What do you think can be done to accelerate this? Is there anything we in the West can do? I've seen some petitions targeted at the Brazilian embassy here in my country - but not sure of its effectiveness, as it seems Bolsonaro doesn't really care what the West think.

Brazilian here. Meddling with politics could backfire hard, being wrapped around the flag with foreigners booing him could actually bounce back his popularity.

As for something the west could do, I'm not an expert, but I think offering to foot the bill for police and inspectors in the area would go a long way.

Most logging and burning in the Amazon is still illegal, but it's very hard to police a huge sparsely populated area[1], and our government is dysfunctional even when it tries. The average Brazilian has little to no sympathy for the criminals, but is ambivalent about paying more for police in the jungle far away. It would be a lot easier to argue for more officers if someone else was footing their salaries.

[1]The rogue logger only needs to win in a small area, any small area would do. The state needs to win everywhere.

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#52

Post by israelo2035 »

Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro has an anti-climate speech similar to Donald Trump's speeches on immigrants. This meant that in the city where I live, people began selling artisanal charcoal from burning near the city.

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#53

Post by vfc1 »

endorphone wrote: post #38
vfc1 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Answered above in another comment, AFIK the Amazon is being torn down mostly for cattle feed crops, soy and others. A lot of the soy is exported all over the world, to china due to the trade wars with the US, to western countries which need cattle feed but don't have the land to produce those crops. Developing nations have limited meat consumption still, the biggest consumers of meat is the west in general. The cattl…

That doesn't answer anything. Brazil's meat and soy exports are overwhelmingly to destinations that are not the West. China did indeed shift a lot of consumption from Canada and the US towards Brazil. That's not Canada and the US' fault, and is 100% the actions and malice of China in trying to be punitive.

One thing's for sure, the forest is being taken down to produce cattle feed, with the final goal to produce cheap meat.

The biggest consumers are the West and China, so following the money I think those are the main responsible because it's their demand for the final product that is ultimately the economic reason behind the deforestation.

So indeed I underestimated the role of China in this process, has I thought historically the biggest consumers of meat have been the west.

The trade wars with China have recently increased the demand for brasilian soy, adding fuel to the fire so to speak.

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#54

Post by tempguy9999 »

esailija wrote: post #40
wsxcde wrote: post #9

If you are seriously concerned about climate change, pressure your government to impose a large tax on beef and pay the proceeds from that tax directly to the people living in the amazon basin. That will incentivize them against deforestation. Expecting poor people to voluntarily give up on the opportunity to make money because you are threatened about your children's future but can't even be arsed to reduce your own…

Every "wallet voter" is in a kind of "prisoner's dilemma" with each other where it won't do anything if they stop unless everyone else stops too. But if everyone else stops then they can continue. Everoyne is aiming to be the one who can continue while everyone else stops thus nothing happens. Every collective downside of any consumption (and because of requirements for infinite growth there is always collective down…

Not everyone defects, and your conclusion that "regulatory capture" is inevitable, and that us little people can do nothing, is toxic. Both are wrong.

I've spent years of my life trying to change things but it is defeatists like you that are part of the problem - spreading "we're fucked anyway" memes is corrosive because it induces the exact attitude and behaviour you say will happen.

Let me be clear, if the world dies we die with it and you die too - got it? So please get off your butt, stop trying to look so worldly-wise, and do something. I know, I know, it takes more effort than posting on HN. Tricky, that.

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#55

Post by [deleted] »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #7
rsaraceni wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brazilian here. In fact, he rejects the term. Some people of his staff deny global warming and he is known for lying and using fake science to justify absurd measures, like removing most of the environmental protection in favor of agriculture. Even rejecting the title, he is known like "Captain Chainsaw" and many others nicknames, most of them mocking him. Unfortunately, in Brazil, our people have a taste for populis…

What do you think can be done to accelerate this? Is there anything we in the West can do? I've seen some petitions targeted at the Brazilian embassy here in my country - but not sure of its effectiveness, as it seems Bolsonaro doesn't really care what the West think.

[deleted]

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#56

Post by vfc1 »

kmonsen wrote: post #45
vfc1 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US trade wars with China is one of the main reasons why the Soy bean production in Brasil has increased in recent years - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-grains/brazil-ride... I know that the US is self-sufficient in meat, both in terms of raising the cattle and the soy and corn crops that feed it. Actually, a large portion of the US is dedicated to meat production, both in pasture land and feed crops -…

Are you really saying that because China is refusing to buy soy beans from the US, that makes the US to blame for China buying more soy beans from Brazil?

I'm saying that global demand for cheap meat (lead by both China and the west) is the actual cause for the ongoing deforestation, as the forest is being cleared to produce cattle feed.

And this is something hardly mentioned in the news at all, by whatever reason.

The trade wars with China have made things a bit worst recently, as there is more demand for brasilian soy.

The main responsibility for me lies with the consumers of the final product (meat), because they are driving the demand.

But OK it's not just the west after all, it's mostly the west and China, but really any nation that is importing cattle feed from Brasil is sponsoring the deforestation, it's a global thing.

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#57

Post by esailija »

jacknews wrote: post #13
vfc1 wrote: post #5

The main responsibility of the Amazon fires lies in the west. The Amazon is on fire in order for Brasil to be able to provide cheap meat for western countries. This comes under two main forms, one is to make room for soy crops, used mostly for cattle feed and not for direct human consumption, the other is for creating pasture land. The west, as well as China, encourage the Amazon fires by favorable trade agreements w…

No, it's not, and I for one get fed up with this constant self-shaming, or "riich western country-shaming" attitude. The problem is the entire system. Of course there is demand, but there is also supply. Each side must maintain standards, rather than just choosing the cheapest options. And both sides must hold each other accountable. Consumers must verify that production is sustainable, etc, and suppliers must insist…

> Each side must maintain standards, rather than just choosing the cheapest options.

People don't have infinite money. In fact 4.5 billion people don't make enough money not to be in qualitative extreme poverty[1] let alone enough money to be able to freely choose options that are not cheapest. Extremely small portion of total people have any actual freedom to choose options other than cheapest.

> Consumers must verify that production is sustainable

Such verification is impossible as it requires infinite time and perfect information. It is always cheaper and more profitable to lie about sustainability than to actually be sustainable. When one hole is fixed 10 more holes appear.

1. https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-...

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#58

Post by vfc1 »

erikw wrote: post #33
vfc1 wrote: post #5

The main responsibility of the Amazon fires lies in the west. The Amazon is on fire in order for Brasil to be able to provide cheap meat for western countries. This comes under two main forms, one is to make room for soy crops, used mostly for cattle feed and not for direct human consumption, the other is for creating pasture land. The west, as well as China, encourage the Amazon fires by favorable trade agreements w…

Anyone familiar with a low carbon footprint meat brand or certification? Seems like an interesting market opportunity. I didn't find a source for child comment re "the West" not being a primary market for Brazilian beef exports, but it doesn't sound unreasonable. Nevertheless, my understanding is that the entire beef supply chain has a massive carbon footprint, and I would think that there is a market for upscale US-…

Is that even actually possible, carbon-neutral beef? I mean the deforestation implied for producing the crops that yield cattle feed, plus the methane emissions produced by the animal during it's lifetime, not to mention the water consumption that both the animal and the crops take, plus the huge amounts of excrements involved.

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#59

Post by zests »

I have always heard that the rainforest is “carbon neutral” because a mature forest will emit just as much carbon as it absorbs. With that in mind, why does the fact that the rainforest produces 20% of the worlds oxygen matter? When I read the above claim I felt like it was trying to push the “rainforests save the atmosphere” angle and I do not know how accurate this sentiment is.

It goes without saying that cutting down the rainforest would release a lot of CO2 and should not be done for many reasons. I am just curious what the significance of producing “20% of the world’s oxygen” is. Or, what does the rainforest do for the atmosphere besides act as a huge carbon bank?

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#60

Post by prawn »

EGreg wrote: post #4

The trade war will make things even worse: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00896-2 On a more positive note, an international reforestation / environmental fund should be set up ASAP to reward satellite-verified reforestation with $$$$ and tax countries for deforestation. It can also use the money to build multi story farms, where solar energy or mirrors are used to feed plants on lower floors. You can save…

No downvotes from me because they're at least ideas to discuss, but in any story about multi-level farming, there is criticism based on cost/scale. Drive through farmland sometime and think about the cost of building a second storey on an area that size. That might've pushed some to downvote?
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