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Why the Amazon Is on Fire

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Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#41

Post by kdmccormick »

glogla wrote: post #35
wsxcde wrote: post #9

If you are seriously concerned about climate change, pressure your government to impose a large tax on beef and pay the proceeds from that tax directly to the people living in the amazon basin. That will incentivize them against deforestation. Expecting poor people to voluntarily give up on the opportunity to make money because you are threatened about your children's future but can't even be arsed to reduce your own…

Beef is like 2 % of humanity's emissions. Gasoline-based transportation and electricity (mostly from coal power plants) are together like 60 %. It's obvious which one we need to focus on. Stop it with the beef already. We need data driven approach. We really really don't need hysteria based approach where something (like beef) is declared sinful. (see https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis... )

Regardless of emissions, beef production is contributing to this specific problem. From the article:

> Much of the deforestation binge is being driven by farming pressure: The Amazon basin is the largest exporter of beef in the world, with about 200 million heads of cattle. And all those cows need a lot of space to spread out.

Did you not read before telling us we need a "data-driven approach"?

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#42

Post by adrianN »

glogla wrote: post #35
wsxcde wrote: post #9

If you are seriously concerned about climate change, pressure your government to impose a large tax on beef and pay the proceeds from that tax directly to the people living in the amazon basin. That will incentivize them against deforestation. Expecting poor people to voluntarily give up on the opportunity to make money because you are threatened about your children's future but can't even be arsed to reduce your own…

Beef is like 2 % of humanity's emissions. Gasoline-based transportation and electricity (mostly from coal power plants) are together like 60 %. It's obvious which one we need to focus on. Stop it with the beef already. We need data driven approach. We really really don't need hysteria based approach where something (like beef) is declared sinful. (see https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis... )

Beef is a large part of the reason why the Amazon is cleared for land.

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#43

Post by prawn »

glogla wrote: post #35
wsxcde wrote: post #9

If you are seriously concerned about climate change, pressure your government to impose a large tax on beef and pay the proceeds from that tax directly to the people living in the amazon basin. That will incentivize them against deforestation. Expecting poor people to voluntarily give up on the opportunity to make money because you are threatened about your children's future but can't even be arsed to reduce your own…

Beef is like 2 % of humanity's emissions. Gasoline-based transportation and electricity (mostly from coal power plants) are together like 60 %. It's obvious which one we need to focus on. Stop it with the beef already. We need data driven approach. We really really don't need hysteria based approach where something (like beef) is declared sinful. (see https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis... )

Isn't that more relevant to a general climate argument than one about the world's ecological heartland being cleared with fire to raise cattle? And as an individual, isn't it possible to make small steps without huge sacrifices on both fronts?

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#44

Post by yodsanklai »

wsxcde wrote: post #9

If you are seriously concerned about climate change, pressure your government to impose a large tax on beef and pay the proceeds from that tax directly to the people living in the amazon basin. That will incentivize them against deforestation. Expecting poor people to voluntarily give up on the opportunity to make money because you are threatened about your children's future but can't even be arsed to reduce your own…

> If you are seriously concerned about climate change, pressure your government to impose a large tax on beef

Why not, but there are so many factors contributing to climate change that it's "suspicious" when people target one specific thing. It's quite difficult to be heard. Why should I renounce to eat beef, while other people have the right to have 3 kids, or to drive a SUV, or to fly to the other side of the world.

If it was possible, it would be best to integrate the cost of externalities in what we consume, so that everyone can choose to sacrifice what they value less. But maybe if we really had to pay for externalities, they wouldn't much that we could still afford.

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#45

Post by kmonsen »

vfc1 wrote: post #32
f00zz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US is the largest soybean producer in the world

The US trade wars with China is one of the main reasons why the Soy bean production in Brasil has increased in recent years - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-grains/brazil-ride... I know that the US is self-sufficient in meat, both in terms of raising the cattle and the soy and corn crops that feed it. Actually, a large portion of the US is dedicated to meat production, both in pasture land and feed crops -…

Are you really saying that because China is refusing to buy soy beans from the US, that makes the US to blame for China buying more soy beans from Brazil?

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#46

Post by jfindley »

vfc1 wrote: post #32
f00zz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US is the largest soybean producer in the world

The US trade wars with China is one of the main reasons why the Soy bean production in Brasil has increased in recent years - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-grains/brazil-ride... I know that the US is self-sufficient in meat, both in terms of raising the cattle and the soy and corn crops that feed it. Actually, a large portion of the US is dedicated to meat production, both in pasture land and feed crops -…

Hmm, as I understand it, the US/China trade war you're referring to has been going on for about a year, total[0]. Looking at the graph for soybean production in Brazil, the increase in the past year has been pretty small and actually appears to be a slight slowing of the growth curve[1], even if the export curve looks rather different. I guess you could make an argument that the trade war has driven the increased deforestation over the past 12 months, but you could just as easily blame any number of other factors, notably including Brazil's current president who has rolled back a number of important environmental protections.

Not every problem needs to be exclusively the fault of the west - it's okay for other people to do things wrong as well.

0: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-exports/u... 1: https://gro-intelligence.com/insights/articles/in-race-for-c...

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#47

Post by jdietrich »

glogla wrote: post #35
wsxcde wrote: post #9

If you are seriously concerned about climate change, pressure your government to impose a large tax on beef and pay the proceeds from that tax directly to the people living in the amazon basin. That will incentivize them against deforestation. Expecting poor people to voluntarily give up on the opportunity to make money because you are threatened about your children's future but can't even be arsed to reduce your own…

Beef is like 2 % of humanity's emissions. Gasoline-based transportation and electricity (mostly from coal power plants) are together like 60 %. It's obvious which one we need to focus on. Stop it with the beef already. We need data driven approach. We really really don't need hysteria based approach where something (like beef) is declared sinful. (see https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis... )

>Beef is like 2 % of humanity's emissions.

Methane emissions from beef cattle account for about 2% of GHG potential. Tropical deforestation contributes to about 10% of our climate impact, most of which is driven by beef farming. There are also significant non-climate impacts of deforestation in terms of biodiversity.

Beef is a big deal. It's not the biggest deal, but it's one of many things we need to address. Electricity generation and transport are being rapidly decarbonized thanks to new technology, but there's no technological replacement for old-growth rainforest. We can generate electricity with PV panels, we can run a car or a ship on batteries, but we don't have any sustainable option for things like jet aviation and beef; for the foreseeable future, the only option is to drastically reduce our consumption.

https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warming/stop-deforestation/bee...

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#48

Post by justaguyhere »

wsxcde wrote: post #9

If you are seriously concerned about climate change, pressure your government to impose a large tax on beef and pay the proceeds from that tax directly to the people living in the amazon basin. That will incentivize them against deforestation. Expecting poor people to voluntarily give up on the opportunity to make money because you are threatened about your children's future but can't even be arsed to reduce your own…

People love meat. I've had discussions with (otherwise) intelligent and responsible people - they suddenly turn irrational and irresponsible when talking about the amount of meat they consume and its shitty effects on everything.

It is going to be really difficult to convince people to consume less meat, increase tax on meat etc.

Not saying we shouldn't try, but it is a tough problem to take on.

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#49

Post by mc32 »

dangoor wrote: post #19
wsxcde wrote: post #9

If you are seriously concerned about climate change, pressure your government to impose a large tax on beef and pay the proceeds from that tax directly to the people living in the amazon basin. That will incentivize them against deforestation. Expecting poor people to voluntarily give up on the opportunity to make money because you are threatened about your children's future but can't even be arsed to reduce your own…

> If you are seriously concerned about climate change, pressure your government to impose a large tax on beef and pay the proceeds from that tax directly to the people living in the amazon basin. That will incentivize them against deforestation. But if the income they're receiving is coming from a tax on beef, wouldn't they want to produce more?

Presumably the tax would make beef unpalatable to the wallet driving people to choose alternatives like chicken or lamb.

Re: Why the Amazon Is on Fire

#50

Post by PeterStuer »

wsxcde wrote: post #9

If you are seriously concerned about climate change, pressure your government to impose a large tax on beef and pay the proceeds from that tax directly to the people living in the amazon basin. That will incentivize them against deforestation. Expecting poor people to voluntarily give up on the opportunity to make money because you are threatened about your children's future but can't even be arsed to reduce your own…

You really think ail deforestation is driven by the poor people, and not by the Brazilian meat packing corporations JBS, BRF, Marfrig and Minerva? Slavery is still very widespread in the meat-packing industry in the region, I do not think the 'poor' have much agency in this<
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