Live data from Hacker News

Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

jeff-vogel.blogspot.com

391–400 of 552 posts

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#391
post #336

I'm super happy that games that look and feel like those from Spiderweb Software exist. I think it's charming. But the fact that he feels compelled to write an article in defense of the art style is telling to me. I think it's not unreasonable to answer the headline question with "because they're stubborn". Their games look crap, not because of a lack of resources but because of a disrespect for visual design (it's n…

What a weird comment. The guy says he likes the style of his games, and that they make a profitable business for him. Why do you insist there's a "problem"? I thought this was a great article. Why do the games look "ugly"? Because 1) perfect graphics aren't even the point; and 2) this is a way to build a sustainable business. Your technical complaints about the art entirely miss the point. And I guarantee that there…

> What a weird comment. The guy says he likes the style of his games, and that they make a profitable business for him. Why do you insist there's a "problem"?

The author believes there's a problem, or they wouldn't have written an article about it. I agree with the grandparent comment. The tone of the article isn't "yes, the graphics are bad but it's fine", it's "you just don't appreciate the style". The author lists four things they believe to be the cause of the complaints:

> 1. Queen's Wish has a very retro square-tile top-down view, reminiscent of old Ultima games, old Pokemon games, Spiderweb's first games, tabletop D&D, that sort of thing. For some, that old style is really unfamiliar and/or alienating.

> 2. Queen's Wish uses art made by a lot of different artists. That means that the style is not quite consistent. We've done our best to make it blend well, but it's a little off.

> 3. All the characters only look in diagonal directions. I made this choice because I once thought all the art would be hand-drawn, and I desperately needed to reduce the number of icons I needed. This was a mistake, and I'll probably try to fix it in Queen's Wish 2.

> 4. It's not in 3-D. Some people will only ever be happy with 3-D.

Of these four, two are "you don't like the style" (1 and 4), and one is a technical complaint that the author agrees with (3). But in this comment section, the focus is clearly on point 2 (lack of art direction).

The author has an explanation for point 2 (cost), which most commenters find reasonable (some disagree of course, which is to be expected). But it's the large amount of text spent debating point 1 and 4 (which are unrelated to cost) that people take issue with.

To me, the inclusion of point 1 and 4 come off as deflection from point 2, the point that most complainants actually have an issue with.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#392
One of the curses of games is that they start to feel “old” quickly; the faster you can develop new content, the better. It is a lot faster to add content with simpler art (and cheaper, with better consistency, etc. as article says).

Now compare something ultra-realistic like FFXV. Undoubtedly cool. Took them 10 years though, and even then they almost released it too soon. Gamers still blew through all available content in no time. Except now, the developers can’t just add a bunch of new stuff in no time: every change has an absurdly-high quality bar to meet. That means extremely high cost, and probably more time spent than they’d like.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#393
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you overread the "necessarily" part of my quote. Good art can cost a ton and it does so for a reason. I (among other things) worked as a freelance designer, so I know. What I meant however is that depending on the genre you might find solutions that you can do yourself far easier with equally good (or better) results. You could work with one-color abstract shapes and give them a good feel by using the right d…

I didn't miss that "necessarily", I disregarded it as stakes-free theorycrafting. I know how much art costs and I know from personal experience how quickly art people flake if you aren't paying enough money to keep them in line. (Which is something people here take for granted amongst developers, but for some reason nobody else.) "Depending on the genre"--JV makes Ultima-alikes. So by this theorycrafting he should st…

Ah okay, that's where our misunderstanding stems from: to me JV is some guy who wrote a blog post and my statement was not meant as a response specifically to him, but as general advice to not choose a art style that is hard to implement given your existing means of production (be it your own time, skill or the money you have for hiring people).

For you it was specifically about that one guy whose games you like as they are and I didn't mean to critizise them. The relativizations uttered by me like "depending on the genre" or "necessarily" were meant to act as hints, that I was talking in a more general sense here. Maybe what he wrote is great advice for other devs who create ultima-alikes, I can't really judge that.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet some small developers have managed to build visually stunning games, like Brigadier. Enter The Gungeon, Stardew Valley, Dungeons Of The Endless, were all developed by very small teams.

At least one of those games--Brigadier--failed so hard that the team fell apart. The others don't take into account that for every one of those successes there are ten or twenty failures. JV isn't trying to be a runaway success, he's trying to not be a failure . I don't quite get why that's so hard for folks here to parse.

It's hard to grok until you've gone into business for yourself.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#395
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People like me" are uttering these things, because "people like me" are facing the same or similar questions themselves. You are right about time being a scarce resource. This is precisely the reason why one shouldn't skimp on $IMPORTANT_THING: because it can greatly reduce the value of all the time put into the thing already. So you got me 180° wrong – if his motives were purely economical, I'd completely understan…

Why does the sum of the value of his time have to be expressed purely in profit? That's ridiculous. Way I see it, he's optimized for the amount of enjoyment he gets out of what he does while still being able to pay the bills with it. We could all hope to be so lucky.

I nowhere said that it did.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't. The word you're looking for here is can't. I think the real term is "Not Invented Here Syndrome". This site has thousands of open sourced game assets: https://opengameart.org Here is an asset pack of 65 fantasy icons for $5: https://assetstore.unity.com/packages/2d/gui/icons/fantasy-r... I suspect someone spending $200 and a day of searching could probably find most of the art needed for Queen's Wish. There'…

Dude...have you ever tried to use OpenGameArt or asset packs in anger? The quality is at best "uneven", you'll still have the exact same "but they're inconsistent " complaints, and then on top of that you get people whining that you used off-the-shelf art. (Rather like "oh it's an RPG Maker" game, which is something that Zeboyd Games, another low-budget indie developer, gets all the time; they don't use RPG Maker, bu…

Dude... I have and am using asset packs. If your design schtick is looking as cheap as possible then it's not very hard to get what you need.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a weird comment. The guy says he likes the style of his games, and that they make a profitable business for him. Why do you insist there's a "problem"? I thought this was a great article. Why do the games look "ugly"? Because 1) perfect graphics aren't even the point; and 2) this is a way to build a sustainable business. Your technical complaints about the art entirely miss the point. And I guarantee that there…

> What a weird comment. The guy says he likes the style of his games, and that they make a profitable business for him. Why do you insist there's a "problem"? The author believes there's a problem, or they wouldn't have written an article about it. I agree with the grandparent comment. The tone of the article isn't "yes, the graphics are bad but it's fine", it's "you just don't appreciate the style". The author lists…

> The author believes there's a problem, or they wouldn't have written an article about it.

From the bottom of the article: "I am writing these blog posts to get attention to our newest game, Queen's Wish: The Conqueror. You can also follow me on Twitter."

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#398
post #336

I'm super happy that games that look and feel like those from Spiderweb Software exist. I think it's charming. But the fact that he feels compelled to write an article in defense of the art style is telling to me. I think it's not unreasonable to answer the headline question with "because they're stubborn". Their games look crap, not because of a lack of resources but because of a disrespect for visual design (it's n…

[deleted]

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I havent played any of his games but now would love to do it. I like dwarf fortress and generally am bummed with the gameplay in current games.

Try Cogmind.

Also in that vein, Caves of Qud is worth a try.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#400

I wonder what the sentiment would be if the situation was reversed. Here we have a developer effectively looking to pay below market rates for artists, and then unsurprisingly not finding many good artists willing to do that long term. Not a judgment on my part, just saying that he's looking to keep the art budget to an absolute minimum. Instead if it was an artist defending his choice to make relatively simple games…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN