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Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

jeff-vogel.blogspot.com

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Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#131

Post by kirstenbirgit »

meheleventyone wrote: post #9

Arrrgh, there are a lot of interesting and good points in the article but for the most part they miss the wood for the trees. The actual answer is that care isn't being taken to develop a style that looks good and meets his constraints. Jeff needs a good art director. The Ultima V and Baba is You examples are excellent counter-points because they show how great games with simple styles can look.

I just don't think he has good taste. You don't necessarily need a bunch of resources to make things look nice, but you need to know what you want.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#132

Post by freetime2 »

PeterStuer wrote: post #116
freetime2 wrote: post #104

Jeff Vogel has run a successful business for 25 years - making the games he wants to make, living the life he wants to live, and making a lot of people happy in the process. We should all be so lucky. People may not like his graphics and that’s totally understandable. But hopefully everyone can at least respect his accomplishments.

So we can't have opinions on public statements of people if they are 'successful'? The choices are his, but people can still have opinions and voice them. e.g. Jeff believes marginal revenue increases would not be enough to offset marginal expenses. Others have different opinions, and voice them as a response to a public blogpost. I see nothing wrong with that.

I updated my comment above to remove the negative reaction to the general HN sentiment. Of course anyone is free (and encouraged) to voice their opinions.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#133

Post by marvin »

atoav wrote: post #115
sfg wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm so glad somebody sane has shown up. The guy is doing well, relative to his own aims and objectives, and has found a way to work within his limitations to hit a sweet spot that allows him to support his family in a happy life and provide games enjoyed by a loyal fanbase. What do we discover from HN? He's a lazy bugger that hasn't put any real effort in to respond to his customer's complaints and has failed to lear…

This is what I said in a different comment: there are people like that in film too – they make films their whole life, found a certain level that they feel comfortable with and settle there. That is a perfectly fine choice and in no way should anybody talk bad about it. The only thing that bugs me however is when they try to come up with excuses why their works don't live up to the standard of other artists judge the…

Why is that sad? He seems to be perfectly content, maybe except for about the fact that some people criticize him.

You don't have to always strive to be among the world elite at everything. Often, mediocrity in some areas of life (professional or otherwise) is a perfectly valid choice that will lead to greater happiness in the end.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#134

Post by sha666sum »

As expected, a lot of people in this thread are giving "valuable" advice about his art style. Jeff's self-ironic way of saying the game looks like crap and calling his art style inconsistent seems to have set the tone of the conversation.

Having played through the Avernum trilogy last year, I don't think the art style is inconsistent at all, especially considering how old some of the assets are. Please have a closer look at some actual screenshots from a recent Avernum game[1] before providing your invaluable input on how he should manage his game art.

[1] https://www.gog.com/game/avernum_escape_from_the_pit

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#135

Post by 0-_-0 »

cousin_it wrote: post #90
alttab wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article explains why this is so. Arguably with some art direction from Jeff himself he can make art that is more easily replicable, but the reasoning seems to be that "I have to be able to swap artists out." Instead of learning enough about game art over 25 years to direct some consistency across artists for his games, he rationalizes it as an explicit business choice. I think he's missing an opportunity to learn…

He could first pay an artist to create a style guide like this: https://66.media.tumblr.com/f055b014e1db777c9ebd54579691cda0... Then swapping out artists will be easier and the game will look more consistent.

That palette swapping trick looks like a great idea for indie games!

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#136

Post by taneq »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #84

> People who grew up with Nintendo and Sega really like pixel art. As one of those people, I really don't like pixel art at all. Today's pixel art looks nothing like games did back in the day. The simple reason is that those Nintendo and Sega games weren't played on 27" 4k LCD monitors or 65" OLED TV's but on on the barely 14" CRT in my bedroom. We didn't have huge pixely sprites, they were small and blurry. It had a…

It doesn't have to be 100% authentic to the period to be genuinely nostalgic. Retrowave still 'sounds like' the 80s even though the cyberpunk 80s it harks back to never quite existed.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#137

Post by Beltiras »

jplayer01 wrote: post #121
cotelletta wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps. Or maybe freelance artists are frustrated working with someone who doesn't seem to understand what they like to see in good work, and what gives them a sense of satisfaction in a product they have worked on. I mean the guy seems incapable of comprehending style if this is what he's putting out 25 years in.

Maybe. Doesn't change the position he's in though. Let's say he is incapable of comprehending style. What do you suggest he's supposed to do now? I see all this criticism here and I don't see any real solutions that would, on a realistic, concrete level, help him in any way improve his business.

I think everyone is missing the point. This was not a call for help. It was an explanation of why things are the way they are and why they will not change. Guy's found a way to make a living with the skillset he has and I say power to him.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#138

Post by Zarel »

m0nty wrote: post #10

ITT: lots of people missing the point that he doesn't actually believe his games look like crap, he's just made a conscious (and profitable) decision to go retro. He likes his games' visual style and values the freelancers who produce the art. I didn't think this is a difficult point but apparently it is.

If _all_ he had said was that he had made a conscious decision to go retro, well, a lot of people _are_ responding to that. "It's possible to go retro without looking bad" is a common sentiment in this thread.

But more importantly, that's not even all he said. He also defended his decision by pointing to games like Pokémon and Baba Is You, and saying "these games also look ugly, therefore there's nothing wrong with my games looking ugly", which means that _he's_ missing a really important point, which is that those games don't look ugly.

I completely understand if he can't afford to hire anyone with design sense, and that he doesn't want to learn basic design. But a lot of the rest of what he's saying is outright wrong, and belies a complete misunderstanding of what people mean when they say his games are ugly.

Probably the best counterexample is Kingdom of Loathing:

https://www.kingdomofloathing.com/

Kingdom of Loathing isn't ugly. It's possible to draw very low-effort art without a game looking ugly. It's much more understanding basic principles like consistency and clarity, than effort or budget.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#139

Post by dfxm12 »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #84

> People who grew up with Nintendo and Sega really like pixel art. As one of those people, I really don't like pixel art at all. Today's pixel art looks nothing like games did back in the day. The simple reason is that those Nintendo and Sega games weren't played on 27" 4k LCD monitors or 65" OLED TV's but on on the barely 14" CRT in my bedroom. We didn't have huge pixely sprites, they were small and blurry. It had a…

As one of those people, I really don't like pixel art at all.

I don't like pixel art either. I assume it is easier to make pixel art than good looking sprites. I think the article touches on this.

but on on the barely 14" CRT in my bedroom. We didn't have huge pixely sprites, they were small and blurry.

This is true for consoles, but not really for arcade games of the era, which have very crisp, very pixelated graphics, like the Link on the left.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#140

Post by Aaargh20318 »

dfxm12 wrote: post #139
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #84

> People who grew up with Nintendo and Sega really like pixel art. As one of those people, I really don't like pixel art at all. Today's pixel art looks nothing like games did back in the day. The simple reason is that those Nintendo and Sega games weren't played on 27" 4k LCD monitors or 65" OLED TV's but on on the barely 14" CRT in my bedroom. We didn't have huge pixely sprites, they were small and blurry. It had a…

As one of those people, I really don't like pixel art at all. I don't like pixel art either. I assume it is easier to make pixel art than good looking sprites. I think the article touches on this. but on on the barely 14" CRT in my bedroom. We didn't have huge pixely sprites, they were small and blurry. This is true for consoles, but not really for arcade games of the era, which have very crisp, very pixelated graphi…

> This is true for consoles

Sure, but the author specifically mentions "People who grew up with Nintendo and Sega"

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