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Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

jeff-vogel.blogspot.com

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Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#121

Post by jplayer01 »

cotelletta wrote: post #109
jplayer01 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> wanting to swap out artists is just counterproductive You're saying this like this was one of his design goals from the very beginning when he started 25 years ago. No, it's become a requirement because of how unreliable freelancers can be and how difficult it is to find a replacement that is able or willing to stick to the previous style. Thus generic fantasy stuff has become his solution to this issue that is una…

Perhaps. Or maybe freelance artists are frustrated working with someone who doesn't seem to understand what they like to see in good work, and what gives them a sense of satisfaction in a product they have worked on. I mean the guy seems incapable of comprehending style if this is what he's putting out 25 years in.

Maybe. Doesn't change the position he's in though. Let's say he is incapable of comprehending style. What do you suggest he's supposed to do now?

I see all this criticism here and I don't see any real solutions that would, on a realistic, concrete level, help him in any way improve his business.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#122

Post by baud147258 »

cotelletta wrote: post #109
jplayer01 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> wanting to swap out artists is just counterproductive You're saying this like this was one of his design goals from the very beginning when he started 25 years ago. No, it's become a requirement because of how unreliable freelancers can be and how difficult it is to find a replacement that is able or willing to stick to the previous style. Thus generic fantasy stuff has become his solution to this issue that is una…

Perhaps. Or maybe freelance artists are frustrated working with someone who doesn't seem to understand what they like to see in good work, and what gives them a sense of satisfaction in a product they have worked on. I mean the guy seems incapable of comprehending style if this is what he's putting out 25 years in.

> I mean the guy seems incapable of comprehending style if this is what he's putting out 25 years in.

It looks worse than his previous games, so he's gotten worse with time.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#123

Post by udp »

ChrisRR wrote: post #71

Unfortunately I think the graphics look like that typical windows 95 style game, where the lighting is inconsistent, the style is inconsistent, the colour choices are drab and the fonts are just the first default picks from MS word. There's a lot of work that needs to be done to pick a consistent style, because at the moment it's a mixture of everything and it all clashes.

The fact that you identify "that typical windows 95 style game" as being a thing implies that it is a style, whether or not you like the style. Building games that look like that today is just a specific kind of retro.

The screenshots of John's games make me feel nostalgic in the same way that I'm sure NES and Arcade style games make 80s kids feel nostalgic. The Windows 95 style is retro now, even if it still feels current to us!

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#125

Post by jstummbillig »

alttab wrote: post #63
jplayer01 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Jeff needs a good art director. Did you miss the part where adding an employee would double his required budget for the game? Which means he needs at least double the sales? Which means more risk? And there's no guarantee he'll hit that even if the graphics look better? He spells out that he's working with freelancers, who often flake out for (understandable) various reasons.

You would think after 25 years of making games he'd have enough sense to direct art himself in some way. Seems like he's rationalizing his choices instead of taking it upon himself to learn from his customer's criticisms and his own experience. If I had made that many games over 3 decades I would have at least learned how to talk to freelance artists in a way that would get better over time. It seems Jeff has put no…

> If I had made that many games over 3 decades I would have at least

Yeah, but you have not.

Maybe Jeff having a single minded focus – maybe even bordering ignorance – is a huge part of the reason why he, in fact, has done it and keeps on going after 3 decades.

Considering different choices, could he be more successful? He probably could, but considering the immense improbability of the level of success he enjoyed over a couple of decades in this particular profession (indie game maker), it seems far more likely that any big change could have made it all crash and burn somewhere along the way a long time ago.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#126

Post by kalleboo »

0xfaded wrote: post #3

The graphics immediately reminded me of Tibia ( https://www.tibia.com/news ), the MMO running since 1997. My friends were into it at one point, and I cut my programming teeth writing bots for the game (sorry CIPsoft). Kind of sad to see the playership has been in decline for the last 10 years though :(.

Seeing the graphics I was reminded of Realmz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realmz), which was a game I absolutely loved as a kid. So to me the games hit a nostalgia spot.

It seems like Fantasoft published the first Spiderweb game (and looking at screenshots there are definitely some shared assets) so there is actually a connection there.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#127

Post by sha666sum »

starsinspace wrote: post #47

Oh wow, I remember playing Exile back then! Found it on some shareware CD-ROM in the 90s. Was a nice game... I should check out their newer games!

The Avernum trilogy, starting with Escape from the Pit[1] is a remake of the original Exile-trilogy. I highly recommend especially the first game in the trilogy.

[1] https://www.gog.com/game/avernum_escape_from_the_pit

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#128

Post by underwater »

It seems like there is so much he could do that doesn't require paying for new assets or more expensive artists.

For example lighting and shadows can be generated dynamically (currently they're baked into the assets, meaning they are inconsistent or completely missing). Or generate edges between ground textures procedurally so things don't look so blocky. Add a particle system for weather and atmospheric effects.

If he did that then he'd be able to carry that work forward into future games, and achieve a consistency of look and feel that extends beyond what he can get by trying to match artwork.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#129

Post by sgift »

barryhoodlum wrote: post #25
gtirloni wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article explains in detail where he wants the game to sit and why. Sorry, I don't follow.

But his games don't sit where he thinks they sit. It's baffling as there's a huge market for "retro" looking indie games, and has been for a decade or so. Plenty of successful and influential indie games made by a small team (or even a solo developer) in the past decade have been really successful despite looking like they could run on an NES or a Commodore 64, with limited palettes and chunky graphics. But there's a…

> in the past decade have been really successful

He makes indie games for 25 years. They feed him and his family. That sounds very successful to me.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#130

Post by pasabagi »

jplayer01 wrote: post #121
cotelletta wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps. Or maybe freelance artists are frustrated working with someone who doesn't seem to understand what they like to see in good work, and what gives them a sense of satisfaction in a product they have worked on. I mean the guy seems incapable of comprehending style if this is what he's putting out 25 years in.

Maybe. Doesn't change the position he's in though. Let's say he is incapable of comprehending style. What do you suggest he's supposed to do now? I see all this criticism here and I don't see any real solutions that would, on a realistic, concrete level, help him in any way improve his business.

I don't really see the problem. If you're not a visual person, and you don't want to be, you shouldn't make visual decisions. He's already hiring freelancers, so he obviously gets this point. The problem is, he should just give a freelancer a broader brief. Like, 'pick all the colours the game will use'. Or even, 'do the art'. I don't see what the difference is between hiring a freelancer to do direction, and hiring somebody to do a couple of sprites.
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