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Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

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Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#271

Post by Draiken »

ivanhoe wrote: post #219

It's comparing apples and oranges to compare medieval peasants life and modern office work. Even today in rural areas people work around the clock in and around the house to keep everything afloat and barely survive. Sitting on your butt for 10h a day and doing intellectual work seems hard only until you try to do some farming for a while - and modern farming is nothing compared to how hard it was back then, when you…

I'd argue it's actually easier to cope when what you need is repetitive hard physical labor.

You don't go to sleep thinking about that big problem you still haven't solved. You actually get the satisfaction of doing the physical activity. You know with certainty that you've done your job (you can actually see it) and you know when to stop because your body will tell you to. Finally, you might be exhausted physically at the end of the day, but your mind is definitely not exhausted, which allows you to actually do something with it afterwards.

On the other hand with mental work, mostly you can't stop thinking about work unless you distract yourself. Many times you don't see the outcome of what you did and it's pretty easy to think you haven't actually "done" anything.

Another thing I'd say is that with farming (and other manual labor activities) there is very little that is not known beforehand. You might have some unexpected events, but even then, you likely know what to do in those occasions. With mental work it's a lot more unpredictable and full of unknowns.

Having said all that, I've never had the opportunity to work with physical labor so my views are likely biased.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#272

Post by danieltillett »

lostjohnny wrote: post #243
danieltillett wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Hard physical work is real work - sitting at a desk tapping on a keyboard is a dream.

it's a different job. it's equally hard, one could argue it's not equally heavy, but many athletes today exercise way more than what the typical medieval "drunk till the early morning ready to beat his wife and kids" farmer did.

While many athletes do work hard, it is one thing to work hard when you are well fed and another when you are starving.

I have done both hard physical and keyboard tapping jobs in my life and I have no wish to go back to doing hard labor.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#273

Post by claudeganon »

WalterBright wrote: post #256
claudeganon wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I’ll take Allende’s ambassador, Orlando Letelier’s, word on the matter over a bunch of apologists on a subreddit (who largely and laughably quote what Friedman and his buddies said was there involvement). Letelier was killed by agents of Pinochet for saying as much: https://www.thenation.com/article/the-chicago-boys-in-chile-...

What's your take on dTal's assessment that libertarians are for no government at all? If you have any evidence of advocacy for repression in any of Friedman's lifetime of his books, articles, or lectures, I'd like to see it.

It seems a wrong conflation of Libertarianism and Anarchism.

I already pointed you to one of Allende’s chief advisors identifying Friedman as providing the direct, ideological grounding for the Chilean coup, so I’m not sure what more evidence you want. What Friedman said in his speeches and wrote in books is not the sum total of his work and ideology. There’s also what he did, who he allied himself with, etc. He was remarkably consistent in denouncing his detractors as part of a “communist conspiracy,” while at the same time being remarkably callous about things like the apartheid regime in South Africa and the Tiennamen Square massacre. So I find appeals to him as some undaunted supporter of “freedom” specious at best.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#274

Post by rubber_duck »

wukerplank wrote: post #267
rubber_duck wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole thing is much better explained through supply demand and security. When job supply is low you want to maintain a close relationship with your employer because you hope this grants job security. When the demand outpaces supply suddenly people are forced to bid up wages - I agree that the culture might need time to catch up - like initially the risk averse will still be stuck in this mode and few will change…

Have a look a low wage/low skill jobs. There is no such thing as security, employees are subject to their employer's benevolence. They even have to accept circumstances that might violate laws. They can't fight it because they need the job, even if they hate it. I'm too busy to do the research for you, but Amazon warehouse workers are the first examples that come to my mind.

I've worked those jobs when I was younger - none of those people would feel any shame quitting for a better job so I'm not sure what your argument is.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#275

Post by CalRobert »

odiroot wrote: post #153
Consultant32452 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Countries where it's normal for both parents to work rely on a serf class, usually of immigrant women, to care for their children at terrible wages so both parents can work. I wonder how long this can be sustainable.

In my country (Poland) we "use" grandparents for that.

Bit of a disadvantage for big families (lots of kids-per-grandparent) or this without grandparents around...

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#276

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

The author clearly misses the mark. Not all hours are created equal.

Or is it physical labor under the sun, constant exposure to the elements or a furnace more "leisurely" ...than sitting on a desk with air conditioning?

This kind of comparison is exactly what gets you into financial crisis. Reading the data is only 1 side of the equation. Understanding its implications is, sadly, a major failing of most academics outside of risk management

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#277

Post by ernst_klim »

lostjohnny wrote: post #245
lotsofpulp wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"the big institutional lie” The big lie is all the lavish promises people made to their future selves. Expensive medical treatments (Medicare), retirement funds (social security/pension payments), expensive infrastructure (constant access to clean water/electricity/gas/sewage/etc). Maybe the biggest lie is pretending to be able to predict the future. All those aforementioned promises require future resources, popula…

> Expensive medical treatments Again. Universal healthcare solved that in Europe. It is expensive, but it's a shared cost that benefits everybody. > Maybe the biggest lie is pretending to be able to predict the future Maybe, but back then they didn't have the means to care for more than a few days at a time, to think about the future. If they could have done it, they would have done it.

> Universal healthcare solved that in Europe.

As a person which lives in Russia and Germany, I'm really interested in what you mean by solved?

Universal healthcare in Russia is a total mess. Universal healthcare (edit: in Germany) have a lot of problems too, of which the most significant is underpayment, low salaries, and such a lack of personnel, that CDU people did really suggest to use conscription to draw the free workforce.

The very flaw of positive rights is that you can't guarantee them, since they cost money. If you have no money, your positive rights end there. Yet people still believe that one could guarantee such rights.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#278

Post by CalRobert »

perfunctory wrote: post #186

In a world where no one is compelled to work more than four hours a day, every person possessed of scientific curiosity will be able to indulge it, and every painter will be able to paint without starving, however excellent his pictures may be. Young writers will not be obliged to draw attention to themselves by sensational pot-boilers, with a view to acquiring the economic independence needed for monumental works, f…

And this is why scarcities of necessities (housing in particular) must be manufactured - to keep people competing with each other to see who can best make investors wealthy that they might be rewarded with the ability to barely able afford a decent home (after signing away their liberty for 30 years of course)

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#279

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

wukerplank wrote: post #267
rubber_duck wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole thing is much better explained through supply demand and security. When job supply is low you want to maintain a close relationship with your employer because you hope this grants job security. When the demand outpaces supply suddenly people are forced to bid up wages - I agree that the culture might need time to catch up - like initially the risk averse will still be stuck in this mode and few will change…

Have a look a low wage/low skill jobs. There is no such thing as security, employees are subject to their employer's benevolence. They even have to accept circumstances that might violate laws. They can't fight it because they need the job, even if they hate it. I'm too busy to do the research for you, but Amazon warehouse workers are the first examples that come to my mind.

Have a look = outsider view

Why speak if you have little experience in it? Maybe people with actual experience like the below poster will prove your inferences wrong

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#280

Post by ernst_klim »

Draiken wrote: post #271
ivanhoe wrote: post #219

It's comparing apples and oranges to compare medieval peasants life and modern office work. Even today in rural areas people work around the clock in and around the house to keep everything afloat and barely survive. Sitting on your butt for 10h a day and doing intellectual work seems hard only until you try to do some farming for a while - and modern farming is nothing compared to how hard it was back then, when you…

I'd argue it's actually easier to cope when what you need is repetitive hard physical labor. You don't go to sleep thinking about that big problem you still haven't solved. You actually get the satisfaction of doing the physical activity. You know with certainty that you've done your job (you can actually see it) and you know when to stop because your body will tell you to. Finally, you might be exhausted physically…

> You actually get the satisfaction of doing the physical activity.

Found a guy who haven't done any hard physical labor before. You are confusing a 8-hourd hardcore shift/12 hours hard work under the boiling sun in the field with a 1-2 hour workout in a gym.

> Finally, you might be exhausted physically at the end of the day, but your mind is definitely not exhausted, which allows you to actually do something with it afterwards.

Namely, to lie down and get sleep at once.

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