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Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

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Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#181
post #114

The 40h a day week and modern-day work contracts come as a direct evolution of medieval servitude, with little modification. This explains the system of values that revolve around it, such as for example the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time. The servant was not expected to leave it…

When everything is urgent, nothing is urgent.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#182
I have talked to relatives who, in living memory, established and ran farms on the plains. Sod huts, the whole deal. They worked way more than 40 hours a week. A 40 hour week would likely have led to loss of everything or maybe even death. Even after mechanization, a 40 hour week was not in the picture.

Factory workers used to work 6 12 hour days. Then 5 12 hour days. Then 5 10 hour days. Now, more like 5 8 hour days.

We live better than kings and plutocrats did 100 years ago, with luxuries undreamed of in history, and with amazing freedoms.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#183
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is taking care of the children? Who works in the daycares?

I live in Germany, both my kids go to public kindergarten/daycare (there is no distinction between the 2 here, it starts when the child is 1 year old) & the kindergarten teachers are mostly German themselves. They don't earn great wages but they are not indentured servants either.

I became a parent last year and all of my research indicates that 1 is way too young to send a kid away. The optimum age seems to be 3 years. It seems we have come to accept social norms that are not designed around the well-being of the child.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remote work may influence this. Commuting to a workplace just to do the things you might as well do from home will be considered old-fashioned, inefficient and/or shameful in a few years, if my crystal ball is not lying.

The problem with that this is is co located teams are a massive multiplier - very few jobs are truly singleton roles.

There are ways to work around that problem remotely.

When working similar to the Basecamp guys it's even the other way around.

Write problems down and give people time to chew on them. Everyone adds his thoughts and refining the idea will lead to better results than a two hours meeting.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Countries where it's normal for both parents to work rely on a serf class, usually of immigrant women, to care for their children at terrible wages so both parents can work. I wonder how long this can be sustainable.

In my country (Poland) we "use" grandparents for that.

It's the same in Asia. It's a great way to ensure entrenched cultural norms are passed across generations. This can be positive but I'd wager it's more likely negative especially considering the lives current grandparents led.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#186
In a world where no one is compelled to work more than four hours a day, every person possessed of scientific curiosity will be able to indulge it, and every painter will be able to paint without starving, however excellent his pictures may be. Young writers will not be obliged to draw attention to themselves by sensational pot-boilers, with a view to acquiring the economic independence needed for monumental works, for which, when the time at last comes, they will have lost the taste and capacity. Men who, in their professional work, have become interested in some phase of economics or government, will be able to develop their ideas without the academic detachment that makes the work of university economists often seem lacking in reality. Medical men will have the time to learn about the progress of medicine, teachers will not be exasperatedly struggling to teach by routine methods things which they learnt in their youth, which may, in the interval, have been proved to be untrue.

-- Bertrand Russell

http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#187
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Libertarian anti-working-class vitriol Libertarians are not anti-working-class.

Maybe anti-poor is a better description? Could also be that I only notice the assholes and the milder form of libertarians just don't stick out as much :)

> Maybe anti-poor is a better description?

No. Libertarians are against any sort of class system (i.e. legal privileges for certain groups). They are neither anti-rich nor anti-poor. Of course, there are libertarians who are jerks, but that isn't what Libertarianism is about. Also, most people only hear about Libertarianism from non-Libertarians, hence they only hear negative things about it.

Libertarianism is mainly about people being free to choose, and being responsible for their choices, as long as they aren't hurting others in the process.

Milton Friedman's book "Free to Choose" is a good introduction if you're interested in more.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#188
post #114

The 40h a day week and modern-day work contracts come as a direct evolution of medieval servitude, with little modification. This explains the system of values that revolve around it, such as for example the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time. The servant was not expected to leave it…

> such as for example the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time.

Your entire post is overgeneralization and dramatizing to prove some poorly thought out hypothesis but this here is the most obvious example. When there is enough choice people change jobs all the time - the demand in my local dev market went through the roof last couple of years for multiple reasons - I see people change 2 jobs within a year, demand all sorts of things - last round of job interviews I did the interviewers spent double the time explaining why their company was a great fit for me instead of actually interviewing me for position - compared to the usual narrative of asking why I fit them.

The situation is pretty much dictated by supply/demand and both sides take advantage. Firing and quitting can have negative implications for both sides, just depends on scenario.

I don't see where shame enters the equation.

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