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Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

jeff-vogel.blogspot.com

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Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#111

Post by tamasnet »

masklinn wrote: post #80
cousin_it wrote: post #35

Jeff, the art problems of your games have nothing to do with low-res. Baba is You (or Downwell) are just as low-res, but manage to look good because they use fewer colors and choose them well. I recommend learning that skill, it will make your games look way better and it honestly doesn't take that much time.

> Jeff, the art problems of your games have nothing to do with low-res. Baba is You (or Downwell) are just as low-res, but manage to look good because they use fewer colors and choose them well. I expect they're also less busy, and more stylised. Looking at the Queen’s Wish's screenshot, it doesn't look lower resolution than Dungeons of Dredmor, just worse, the backgrounds are way too busy, the colors are inconsisten…

It's all subjective. I much prefer the Queen's Wish look. The other one looks like somebody's MySpace page from forever ago.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#112

Post by LoSboccacc »

masklinn wrote: post #89
LoSboccacc wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't dislike retro games, actually love the art style of Streets of Rogue and KeeperRL, for example, and I agree it's a great way for indies to get budget under control - it's easy to be tempted to just get better art, but then animation, collisions, interactions etc still need to be coded and contribute significantly to development time. that said, what makes these game look at least weird is the combination of v…

> that said, what makes these game look at least weird is the combination of very retro tiles (say, 1994is, master of magic level) with late retro higher def sprites (say, 1998ish?, baldur's gate level) They look way higher res than BG to me, more early or pseudo-3D sprites, they're reminiscent of Van Buren's sprites.

here's a side by side: https://i.imgur.com/OLfbGEY.png

maybe I'm remembering the enhanced edition

but yeah you get the point: they have that "3d model to sprites" style while the background looks like straight pixel art

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#113

Post by megablast »

masklinn wrote: post #80
cousin_it wrote: post #35

Jeff, the art problems of your games have nothing to do with low-res. Baba is You (or Downwell) are just as low-res, but manage to look good because they use fewer colors and choose them well. I recommend learning that skill, it will make your games look way better and it honestly doesn't take that much time.

> Jeff, the art problems of your games have nothing to do with low-res. Baba is You (or Downwell) are just as low-res, but manage to look good because they use fewer colors and choose them well. I expect they're also less busy, and more stylised. Looking at the Queen’s Wish's screenshot, it doesn't look lower resolution than Dungeons of Dredmor, just worse, the backgrounds are way too busy, the colors are inconsisten…

I am not sure which one I prefer.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#114

Post by cousin_it »

masklinn wrote: post #80
cousin_it wrote: post #35

Jeff, the art problems of your games have nothing to do with low-res. Baba is You (or Downwell) are just as low-res, but manage to look good because they use fewer colors and choose them well. I recommend learning that skill, it will make your games look way better and it honestly doesn't take that much time.

> Jeff, the art problems of your games have nothing to do with low-res. Baba is You (or Downwell) are just as low-res, but manage to look good because they use fewer colors and choose them well. I expect they're also less busy, and more stylised. Looking at the Queen’s Wish's screenshot, it doesn't look lower resolution than Dungeons of Dredmor, just worse, the backgrounds are way too busy, the colors are inconsisten…

I think this looks more consistent than both: https://www.gridsagegames.com/blog/gsg-content/uploads/2018/...

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#115

Post by atoav »

sfg wrote: post #100
navigatesol wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems like he didn't try. He got good at other things he cared more about it. Maybe he should hang out on HackerNews more, so he can be an expert on everything.

I'm so glad somebody sane has shown up. The guy is doing well, relative to his own aims and objectives, and has found a way to work within his limitations to hit a sweet spot that allows him to support his family in a happy life and provide games enjoyed by a loyal fanbase. What do we discover from HN? He's a lazy bugger that hasn't put any real effort in to respond to his customer's complaints and has failed to lear…

This is what I said in a different comment: there are people like that in film too – they make films their whole life, found a certain level that they feel comfortable with and settle there. That is a perfectly fine choice and in no way should anybody talk bad about it.

The only thing that bugs me however is when they try to come up with excuses why their works don't live up to the standard of other artists judge themselves by. Jeff listed some quite compelling arguments for his decision, most of them economical, but it still feels like an excuse of somebody who knows they could do better, which is kinda sad.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#116

Post by PeterStuer »

freetime2 wrote: post #104

Jeff Vogel has run a successful business for 25 years - making the games he wants to make, living the life he wants to live, and making a lot of people happy in the process. We should all be so lucky. People may not like his graphics and that’s totally understandable. But hopefully everyone can at least respect his accomplishments.

So we can't have opinions on public statements of people if they are 'successful'?

The choices are his, but people can still have opinions and voice them.

e.g. Jeff believes marginal revenue increases would not be enough to offset marginal expenses. Others have different opinions, and voice them as a response to a public blogpost. I see nothing wrong with that.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#117

Post by LaGrange »

meheleventyone wrote: post #9

Arrrgh, there are a lot of interesting and good points in the article but for the most part they miss the wood for the trees. The actual answer is that care isn't being taken to develop a style that looks good and meets his constraints. Jeff needs a good art director. The Ultima V and Baba is You examples are excellent counter-points because they show how great games with simple styles can look.

> Jeff needs a good art director.

Nah. I mean, I want Jeff to have a good art director because I find the visuals distracting and a bit unpleasant part of games I otherwise might enjoy, but it's pretty clear he doesn't need one.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#118

Post by jdance »

Haha I love how 90% of the comments are from just exactly the same people who he wrote this blog post for, and they still make the same points again :D

I have an indie game myself (Skyturns on G Play) and if you are not an artist, making good art is simply really hard. Someone says ”this menu is ugly”, and the cognitive load of making it meet their expectations is massive.

I even have graphically skilled people critiquing my game, paying them, but then coming back with more ugly menus. A real skilled professional art director is hard to find, recruit and motivate.

On a small scale its a ton of freedom to just let your game be somewhat ugly and just focus on what you yourself is great at.

For all the 1000 opinions I’ve heard about my games menus, not one of these people have produced something better. That 1001st person who actually knows drawing, colors and UX is the professional art director, which is possible to find, but the energy required to find him/her and pay is also something that can go somewhere else!

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#119

Post by pbhjpbhj »

mysterydip wrote: post #38
cousin_it wrote: post #35

Jeff, the art problems of your games have nothing to do with low-res. Baba is You (or Downwell) are just as low-res, but manage to look good because they use fewer colors and choose them well. I recommend learning that skill, it will make your games look way better and it honestly doesn't take that much time.

There are pixel artists that create and share restrictive palettes, which I think could help. For example: http://pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16247

Totally aside the cross-dither chart gives a great animated effect on my monitor!

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#120

Post by atoav »

mcphage wrote: post #110
atoav wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if you make games, and visuals are a part of a game, then knowing when your visuals need improvement is a crucial skill. Jeff doesn't needs to be an expert in everything, he needs to see what doesn't work and fix it, let others fix it or decide this is as good as it gets.

> decide this is as good as it gets. He just wrote a very long article explaining just that.

And it reads like and excuse to himself, which is probably the reason for the reaction on HN. A bit like a film maker who says: "If only I had the budget, Hollywood has, I could totally do better films than them".

Don't get me wrong, good art doesn't necessarily need a lot of money or resources. It needs the right eyes that know when it works and when it doesn't. He seems to aknowledge he doesn't have them and explains why he can't hire someone, all perfectly fine. But also sad, because if he could he clearly would.

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