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Manufacturers want to quit China for Vietnam, but find it impossible

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Re: Manufacturers want to quit China for Vietnam, but find it impossible

#61

Post by Consultant32452 »

panda88888 wrote: post #50
dmix wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood how Asian regional free trade agreements and China providing loans to developing countries is really a threat to the west. Why exactly should the World Bank and the US/Europe be the only top players in the game again? Has all the strings attached to that help really made the world a better place? As far as I'm concerned extreme poverty or simply poverty is enough of a goal to target. Attempting…

> I've never understood how Asian regional free trade agreements and China providing loans to developing countries is really a threat to the west. It’s a threat from the US perspective, in the US national interest. Currently, the US is the top dog internationally, both economically and politically. As China increases its influence especially in the Asia and Africa region via economic investment and, potentially, demo…

I think it's a threat to everyone. As much as people, myself included, have problems with American imperialism, just wait until we get a taste of Chinese imperialism with their millions in concentration camps, dictator for life, ethno-state, and social credit system creating a permanent under class. The further they spread their power, the worse it will be.

Re: Manufacturers want to quit China for Vietnam, but find it impossible

#62

Post by chopin »

Alupis wrote: post #51
BurningFrog wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US assassinates its own citizens without trial occasionally. Don't judge by the anomalies, judge by the everyday life for regular people.

It's a little bit different when the person had taken up arms against the nation, no? Should they get a court hearing? Probably. Is that practical, in some cases, if the person could be apprehended. Otherwise it would just be a pony show with a predetermined outcome, making no difference.

The right to a fair trial should not depend on whether it is practical.

Re: Manufacturers want to quit China for Vietnam, but find it impossible

#63

Post by latchkey »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #43
latchkey wrote: post #28

I'm from the bay area and moved to Vietnam 3 years ago. I'm watching all of this happen in realtime. I've recently completed a 8500km motorbike trip around all of Vietnam, southern Cambodia and Northern Laos. In the south of Vietnam, HCMC, there is massive growth. Huge amounts of construction. The city is over populated and growing rapidly. Millions of kids work for $200 a month. In the north of Vietnam, there is man…

> All over Vietnam, people are making babies in huge numbers. There is a lot of family pressure to do so. They may only have 100m people now, but every single shack and house has 2-3 babies in it. It will be very interesting to see what happens to all these humans over the next 20 years as this country grows at a rapid pace. This statement isn't really supported by the population data. Vietnam's population is project…

You really believe any numbers coming out of Vietnam? Anything public is supplied by the govt.

Re: Manufacturers want to quit China for Vietnam, but find it impossible

#64

Post by latchkey »

fiblye wrote: post #59
latchkey wrote: post #28

I'm from the bay area and moved to Vietnam 3 years ago. I'm watching all of this happen in realtime. I've recently completed a 8500km motorbike trip around all of Vietnam, southern Cambodia and Northern Laos. In the south of Vietnam, HCMC, there is massive growth. Huge amounts of construction. The city is over populated and growing rapidly. Millions of kids work for $200 a month. In the north of Vietnam, there is man…

I work for a Japanese automation company and we’ve been getting a huge surge in projects in Vietnam. Some things here are definitely exaggerated. Birth rates in Vietnam are already below the replacement rate and dropping. Poverty is a colossal problem. People get paid a couple hundred bucks a month at major internationals. Cost of living is massively lower, but downtown apartments for average people (and not mansions…

The amount of wealth here is absolute bonkers massive. Nobody realizes it. Sure there is a majority population living in shacks by the side of the road, but there is a huge huge huge number of people (and growing) in big houses and driving fancy cars. Even some of those shacks are owned by really wealthy people. They just haven't learned to show it off and they don't care about upgrading.

I've seen it all, really. I've stayed in the fanciest hotels and the only place in the smallest village. I've been in such remote places that you don't see a single foreigner for days on end. What you describe is everywhere here. But fact is, you can't drive 100m anywhere in this country without seeing a house/shack with a baby (or ten) in front of it.

The issues you point out about infrastructure is simply that the govt doesn't care about those things. The rich get richer and the poorer get poorer. I don't know of any other society that revolves around 'me me me me' as much as this one.

Re: Manufacturers want to quit China for Vietnam, but find it impossible

#65

Post by mschuster91 »

dmix wrote: post #55
mschuster91 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why exactly should the World Bank and the US/Europe be the only top players in the game again? Because China exploits their loans to have leverage over the countries they deal with - there won't be any criticism of the Muslim Gulags or the oppression in Hong Kong from any country that has loans to China. In contrast, European loans do not come with such strings. The current Chinese government is a threat to the Wes…

> Because China exploits their loans to have leverage over the countries they deal with - there won't be any criticism of the Muslim Gulags or the oppression in Hong Kong from any country that has loans to China. What developing country getting a loan from China was ever going to change Chinas domestic policy otherwise? If all of the West who does billions in trade can hardly make a dent I doubt its worth reducing tr…

The problem is that the West has looked away all the time with the shit China was doing, even back at Tiananmen Square decades ago.

The West could have made a statement back then and uphold human rights, now I fear it is too late and the only way restoring human rights and democracy is either a mass uprising in China (which is unlikely given that many young Chinese are fed propaganda, and so much of it that even Chinese living outside of China defend the Chinese government's actions) or outright war which is next to impossible to win except if China would be nuked to the ground and a full-scale global nuclear war.

The fact that many Western governments themselves are turning towards authoritarianism or outright fascism doesn't help either, and some of them are actually taking quite a bit of inspiration from the Chinese playbook, e.g. in mass video surveillance.

Re: Manufacturers want to quit China for Vietnam, but find it impossible

#66

Post by saiya-jin »

panda88888 wrote: post #50
dmix wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood how Asian regional free trade agreements and China providing loans to developing countries is really a threat to the west. Why exactly should the World Bank and the US/Europe be the only top players in the game again? Has all the strings attached to that help really made the world a better place? As far as I'm concerned extreme poverty or simply poverty is enough of a goal to target. Attempting…

> I've never understood how Asian regional free trade agreements and China providing loans to developing countries is really a threat to the west. It’s a threat from the US perspective, in the US national interest. Currently, the US is the top dog internationally, both economically and politically. As China increases its influence especially in the Asia and Africa region via economic investment and, potentially, demo…

What is beneficial to US might not be beneficial to anybody else (meaning >90% of the world). If I take things to the extreme, it would probably be beneficial for US security and economy to have rest of the world as slaves. Not so much for us.

Previous US governments seemed to have more moral constraints in this regard compared to current one (with great power comes great responsibility and all that). Interesting times we have. I for one root for China despite all its flaws - the world would benefit from counter-balance in power since US is less and less a good moral leader it once used to be.

Plus when we compare outward aggressiveness of these 2 states, US very clearly loses. Fearmongering about China is just empty talk when simple historical facts about unjust invasions of sovereign states are compared. You know, the actually important criteria for common folks out there. Compared to that, the debate whether its better if NSA reads my emails compared to Chinese is a bit pointless.

Re: Manufacturers want to quit China for Vietnam, but find it impossible

#67

Post by freddie_mercury »

mtanski wrote: post #35

Who is starting, building these factories in Vietnam? Who is lending for capital projects and providing industrial expertise to local enterprises. I'll give you one hint, the name of that country starts with a C.

Actually it doesn't start with C.

China is #4 in FDI flows into Vietnam. Every factory I've been to here is South Korean.

Re: Manufacturers want to quit China for Vietnam, but find it impossible

#68

Post by panda88888 »

saiya-jin wrote: post #66
panda88888 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never understood how Asian regional free trade agreements and China providing loans to developing countries is really a threat to the west. It’s a threat from the US perspective, in the US national interest. Currently, the US is the top dog internationally, both economically and politically. As China increases its influence especially in the Asia and Africa region via economic investment and, potentially, demo…

What is beneficial to US might not be beneficial to anybody else (meaning >90% of the world). If I take things to the extreme, it would probably be beneficial for US security and economy to have rest of the world as slaves. Not so much for us. Previous US governments seemed to have more moral constraints in this regard compared to current one (with great power comes great responsibility and all that). Interesting tim…

I agree with you on the fact that what’s beneficial to the US is not necessarily beneficial to other nations. And I agree with you that the current US president is less restraint than previous administrations.

This is probably going to be controversial, but I personally think the US is relatively restrained in its meddling in other nation’s domestic politics given its power and influence. Every nation has its sphere of influence, and they use it for their national interest as needed. In the case of China, it has been building up its military presence in the South China Sea and establishing military base in contested islands to extend their territory claim. It remains to be seem how China will act when it is at the similar power level as the US.

Re: Manufacturers want to quit China for Vietnam, but find it impossible

#69

Post by apatters »

latchkey wrote: post #28

I'm from the bay area and moved to Vietnam 3 years ago. I'm watching all of this happen in realtime. I've recently completed a 8500km motorbike trip around all of Vietnam, southern Cambodia and Northern Laos. In the south of Vietnam, HCMC, there is massive growth. Huge amounts of construction. The city is over populated and growing rapidly. Millions of kids work for $200 a month. In the north of Vietnam, there is man…

The Chinese funded development projects in Laos and Cambodia have been going on for a decade, they predate and have nothing to do with US tariffs.

Because of a fragmented and underdeveloped road system it's hard to transport goods by land between China and Southeast Asia today, that's the main Chinese motive here. (Yes, that also includes gaining better access to the Andaman Sea, which simplifies shipping to India, Africa and the Middle East.)

Re: Manufacturers want to quit China for Vietnam, but find it impossible

#70

Post by cc81 »

thereare5lights wrote: post #60
Alupis wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little bit different when the person had taken up arms against the nation, no? Should they get a court hearing? Probably. Is that practical, in some cases, if the person could be apprehended. Otherwise it would just be a pony show with a predetermined outcome, making no difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki Sometimes, they kill citizens and then effectively say shit happens.

The US also assassinates non citizens in other countries without trial that generally would not be accepted if other countries did the same in the US.

i.e. China sending a drone and blowing up a US citizens car, killing him and his family, somewhere in the middle of US and just saying that they were terrorists and a threat to China's security; but not not providing any evidence as that is classified.

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