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Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

latimes.com

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Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#241

Post by dragonsh »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #227
dragonsh wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well they tried. Shortly after the Chinese revolution, HK was receiving an influx of refugees from China. Mostly well educated and skilled people. Britain was moving to bring in democratic reforms in the 1950s. China threatened to invade to "liberate" the territory if such reforms continued. They didn't try but abandoned any efforts due to self interest of profits and economic extraction from a colony. The article…

The consequence of continuing would have been far worse than abandoning. The fact remains that they were moving to put in place democratic reforms. Prior to the Chinese revolution HK was an economic backwater - most of its population being related to the transhipment port and military presence. Kowloon and New Territories were only added as buffer zone for the port. Growth was nearly all post Chinese revolution. In t…

> The consequence of continuing would have been far worse than abandoning. The fact remains that they were moving to put in place democratic reforms. Prior to the Chinese revolution HK was an economic backwater - most of its population being related to the transhipment port and military presence. Kowloon and New Territories were only added as buffer zone for the port. Growth was nearly all post Chinese revolution.

The consequences of continuing will be worse for Britain as they will not be able to milk revenue or profits from Hong Kong. By extending it until 1997 they were able to milk Hong Kong, until the very day when it was about to become a liability and lead to economic expense.

All the wealth of Hong Kong in those days from 1980's to 1997 was due to growth of China.

Hong Kong has never paid any revenue or money to China, but on the contrary Britain extracted money from Hong Kong since they set foot and continued it for 150 years. On top of it in 1997 moved all the profits to London when they left.

These all facts are part of Hong Kong history.

Probably Britain should pay reparations to Hong Kong. [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7CW7S0zxv4

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#242

Post by dirtyid »

shkkmo wrote: post #233
dirtyid wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was careless to label the response as a rebuttal. The merit and significance of the response for me was the contextualizing of the original New Yorker piece under a pattern of western MSM bias designed designed to undermine and dismiss Chinese perspectives. College Daily is the equivalent of Buzzfeed / Gawker. They don't do good reporting, I'm aware of the controversies surrounding the brand. But to portray it as s…

I frankly see less wrong with that headline than I see wrong with most headlines today. The term "Post-Truth" as an accurate descriptor of College Daily seems to have come directly from Lin: > Pressed to articulate the identity of his publication, Lin used the phrase “post-truth,” which he attributed to the New York Times, to express his belief that the true essence of things is fundamentally unknowable and that the…

When pressed, after other employees labeled the publication as "new media" and "news agency". There are several passages that characterize Lin as annoyed, irritated, angry etc with the interview process to the point of claiming “Can’t I just tell you that I was being a fucking idiot?”. Decontextualizing the nature of the interview and soundbite into a headline is not responsible journalism IMO, especially when it is well understood that a around half of most readers typically only consume headlines. Hence the response article labeling the original piece as a trap.

As for the balancing Chinese perspective, it was one paragraph of people who are disturbed that the publication is "synonymous with government propaganda" and a more detailed examination of one named individual who is apathetic towards the role of journalism to further support the narrative that Chinese students are "melon-eating masses". These accounts hardly encapsulates the amount of distaste among the Chinese diaspora for the publication, who regularly shits on the journal for being a clickfarm the same way many called out Buzzfeed or Gawker in the west, tacitly endorsing the generic Chinese as a monolith trope. There are plenty of Chinese students / general diaspora members who are high-information consumers that have a rational basis to support (and not support) the CPC whose world view is informed by both Chinese and Western sources and experiences. And unsurprisingly there is a conspicuous lack acknowledgement of their existence in western MSM, which is a shame because their perspective is worth understanding.

Anecdotally, there's many highly educated Romanian and Chinese immigrants up in Canada that escaped repressive conditions of the old country. You won't find many Romanian nationalists in the diaspora, and very few who returned. Not so with China. It's worth understanding why and I surmise the answer is more nuanced than these folks are brainwashed.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#243

Post by ferest »

yaowenjiaozi wrote: post #213
jumelles wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They called for a complete withdrawal of the bill, the withdrawal of the “riot” characterisation of the June 12 protests, the unconditional release of all arrested protesters, the formation of an independent commission of inquiry into police behaviour, as well as universal suffrage. Which of those things would make you worry, and why?

#2 withdrawal of "riot" characterization and #3 unconditional release of all arrested protestors, then by implication #4 independent inquiry into police behaviour. Because if #2 and #3 come to be, then #4 will surely severely censure the police for firing tear gas, bean bag bullets and rubber bullets, which will demoralize the police, greatly damage their ability to maintain law and order and incentivize rioting as t…

Exactly as you said. #2 and #3 make the consequence of doing such protest/riot to zero, then #4 punish police force because of they enforcing the law

These would make next protest cost down to zero, and demoralized police hands will be tied to response. This is destroying HK's justice system and legislation system by encouraging solving the interest conflict in the street, because protests could solve the problem can't be solved in the court/Legco, and taking no or minor responsibility. This mobocracy.

Even the gov made compromises under the table, they wouldn't claim they accepted them.

And there is no leader of protesters, which means even 5 demands are accepted, there could be another group demands for next 5. And asking them in the air instead of asking negotiating on the table, non-negotiable acceptance with no trade-off, all these don't look like protester are truly seeking for talk or solution, or they were designed not to do so.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#244

Post by dogma1138 »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #228
khc wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For young Hong Kongers however, they didn't live during British rule. They were born into wealth, and now their own career prospects (like many millenials around the world) aren't great. So they protest." Almost everything in these sentences are wrong. It's not just the young people who are protesting in Hong Kong, and most people in Hong Kong have never been born into wealth. There's a great divide between the weal…

Relative wealth then. HK has long had a GDP per capita on par with western nations. Versus China which has had a GDP per capita on par with developing nations until fairly recently.

Have you been to HK? The level of inequality there is staggering and the cost of living is much higher than most western countries, including things such as rent.

You think SV valley rents are bat shit crazy? Take a look at HK real estate listings.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#245

Post by NeedMoreTea »

dragonsh wrote: post #241
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The consequence of continuing would have been far worse than abandoning. The fact remains that they were moving to put in place democratic reforms. Prior to the Chinese revolution HK was an economic backwater - most of its population being related to the transhipment port and military presence. Kowloon and New Territories were only added as buffer zone for the port. Growth was nearly all post Chinese revolution. In t…

> The consequence of continuing would have been far worse than abandoning. The fact remains that they were moving to put in place democratic reforms. Prior to the Chinese revolution HK was an economic backwater - most of its population being related to the transhipment port and military presence. Kowloon and New Territories were only added as buffer zone for the port. Growth was nearly all post Chinese revolution. Th…

Except that is simply not true, and there's no evidence for it.

British corporations that existed in the HK market may have extracted revenue, as might any corporation, of any nationality with their overseas operations. The Hang Seng is a major stock market in its own right, so the majority of money was staying as HK money. The British government, on the other hand, was not receiving billions into the treasury as a consequence of holding Hong Kong.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#246

Post by age_of_stone »

lsiebert wrote: post #220
dragonsh wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article paints 1.4 billion people with a broad brush. I have met personally highly talented and bright people in China like in many other nations. So I feel this is really not fine if you try to say they don't understand. The reason people in China do not agree with Hong Kong protestors is first about nationalism, they think Hong Kong protestors are attacking China's sovereignty and independence, indeed many put…

I think highly talented and bright people can still be fed wrong information an come to the wrong conclusions. I think it's important to remember that the protesters began protesting in reaction to China's actions. Protesters are just ordinary people, and it's wrong to hold every protestor accountable to the actions of a tiny minority. China however is a single united and sovereign government; it's actions can't be s…

China didn't take any actions before the protest. It is Hong Kong government that proposed the new law. just fyi for making a valid cause.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#247

Post by shkkmo »

dirtyid wrote: post #242
shkkmo wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I frankly see less wrong with that headline than I see wrong with most headlines today. The term "Post-Truth" as an accurate descriptor of College Daily seems to have come directly from Lin: > Pressed to articulate the identity of his publication, Lin used the phrase “post-truth,” which he attributed to the New York Times, to express his belief that the true essence of things is fundamentally unknowable and that the…

When pressed, after other employees labeled the publication as "new media" and "news agency". There are several passages that characterize Lin as annoyed, irritated, angry etc with the interview process to the point of claiming “Can’t I just tell you that I was being a fucking idiot?”. Decontextualizing the nature of the interview and soundbite into a headline is not responsible journalism IMO, especially when it is…

> Decontextualizing the nature of the interview and soundbite into a headline is not responsible journalism IMO

No, not particularly. However, having read both the contents and the piece the and summary of the "rebuttal", I find the headline sufficiently accurate. If find the headline more accurate that your attempt to characterize it as "the kind of headline one would engineer to dismiss Chinese perspectives"

>as for the balancing Chinese perspective, it was one paragraph of people who are disturbed that the publication is "synonymous with government propaganda" and a more detailed examination of one named individual who is apathetic towards the role of journalism to further support the narrative that Chinese students are "melon-eating masses".

I count 11+ paragraphs that detail the opinions of 3 different Chinese individuals (Xiao, Fang and Huang) and they are not presented as monolithic.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#248

Post by age_of_stone »

yardie wrote: post #162
Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

> when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. I consider the 2 to be intertwined. If you are not free to pursue a better way of life, economic circumstances matter very little. The Arab Spring was sparked by a Tunisian street vendor having all his possessions confiscated by the local police. Out of frustration he set himself on fire. Authoritarian regimes are rarely fair and are…

"Authoritarian regimes are rarely fair and are not particularly interested in the financial well being of the population."

if you think Chinese government is authoritarian, then it is an exception coz it does care and try its best to improve the financial well being of the population. and it is the social contract between China government and its people. you need to realize that even "authoritarian" governments are quite different.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#249

Post by chewz »

jdietrich wrote: post #149
Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

>when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom It's more than that. Back in the 70s, Westerners could very easily make the case that the USSR was corrupt, inefficient, hopelessly backwards and fundamentally organised in the interests of the state rather than the people. The evidence was abundant, even to Soviet citizens; any possible defence of the Soviet system was predicated on bl…

> Back in the 70s, Westerners could very easily make the case that the USSR was corrupt, inefficient, hopelessly backwards

I generally agree with you but I think you got timeline wrong. Which matters in this example.

70s in communist countries was a period of relative prosperity. The political repressions ceased, the economies got more consumer oriented, the arms race slowed down, the goverments got more technocratic. Communist countries started to catch up with Western consumption levels. Mass housing developments, car factories, Coca-cola and Pepsi in shops etc.

Lot of younger generation had been happy to join the party not for ideological reasons but for the material prospects it opened.

Then two events happened - first oil crisis and the financial markets dried up suddenly (many communist countries borrowed heavily when money was cheap in eurodollar), second Afganistan, Reagan and Star Wars programme (arms race again).

Communist countries sliped from relative prosperity to austerity which resulted in fall of communism at the end of 80s.

What I am saying is that the revolutions happen often after long period of relative prosperity when economy starts going downhill. And we have similiar circumstances brewing in China right now.

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