Therefore it is somewhat naive to think that bringing uncensored information to the Chinese will somehow change their mind. Just look at the inability of people to change pro-China posters in this and many such posts on HN, who presumably have access to uncensored information, and who are often suspected of being "shills" or robots that are part of a Chinese disinformation campaign.
Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
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Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#92I had a similar experience chatting to my former coworker (who moved recently from China) regarding Taiwan. I said Taiwan is pretty much an independent country given it has it's own currency, military and democratic government. She looked at me like I was telling her the earth was flat. She was smart and good natured, and didn't have any opposing reasons, but she insisted Taiwan was simply another province of China.…
This is waaay off thread-topic, but this is very very important to recognize and learn to internalize at deeper levels that you probably recognize. I just wanted you to know that I know that you just made a very important first step (and it never stops).
Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
I had a similar experience meeting a friend of a coworker at a social function. Someone brought up the Dalai Lama and Tibet, and she seemed completely unable or unwilling to accept that Tibet had even ever _not_ fully and totally willingly been an administrative division of China, or that China had acted in any way inappropriately. As far as she was concerned, Tibetans were Chinese, not a distinct group. It was eye o…
It just says how different views different people can have. I'm pretty sure it was eye opening for her too... I have been living in the West long enough to not argue those stuffs. The Chinese government has its bad and its good, but so far it's doing OK, and I can't imagine any other government could do better, or even on par.
It is easy to see all the good things that happened in China in the last decades, and see the things that work. But I can very easily imagine a better government in China, much like I can do so for the US and in EU countries.
The CCP is running literal concentration camps, is suppressing free speech, using (possibly) questionable economic measures, strongarming other independent countries, censoring and even harvesting organs of prisoners for profit (probably for political elites). And most of those things on a scale previously unimaginable. Furthermore, one might argue (and I am not saying this is black and white) that the process of raising people out of poverty has as much to do with technical progress, foreign trade and China's geographical and demographic makeup, as it has to do with actual policy (and one could therefore imagine even better outcomes!)
I think it is indeed very easy to imagine things going better in China!
That's the entire point, I think. Citizens should be willing and able to be unhappy with their governments, and be able to express this without disappearing. That you can not imagine anyone doing better in China is what the OP was talking about.
Edit: Just to make this clear, I do not want a discussion on the merits of the CCPs policies - everyone can have their own opinion on that - much like for any other country. But the worry is the well rehearsed narrative that China is somehow unique and requires, basically, an iron fist rule. This I have seen many times in discussions with Chinese - saying that all these criticisms may be good and well for other countries, but not for China. And this in the end amounts to unwillingness to question the CCP in any way. And that, I think, is not good.
Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
> independence for a long time even under UK rule? From my understanding, most protesters do not seek independence from China . Do you have evidence to back your sentence up? It's a common misunderstanding in mainland and rest of the world outside of Hong Kong to assume that the (majority of) people of Hong Kong wants independence when they are protecting about a very specific extradition bill. Disclaimer: I'm mainla…
The protestors have defaced CCP liason office with Shina, blame CCP for Carrie Lam being elected, angry about CCP kidnapping book sellers, even the protest against the bill is because it will allow CCP to extradite HongKongers to China, and more. Unless the government changes in China, China = CCP. If CCP wasn't in power any more, a lot of protestors wouldn't mind HongKong being part of China. The protestors know if…
I don't think the reason for people not mentioning independence is because they worry about their personal safety.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Leung
edit: full -> fully
Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wanting their rules to apply in a host country... yeah, that's not a good look. In contrast, we in the West never expect other countries to do it our way when we visit them... /s
There are different cultures with slightly different modalities, but decency is universal. Murder for cannibalism is unacceptable always. Kafkaesque totalitarianism is unacceptable. Shouting-down opponent speakers is unacceptable. Child rape isn't acceptable because it's "their culture."
I think that almost all cultures would agree that murder and child rape are unacceptable, but "Kafkaesque totalitarianism" and "Shouting-down opponent speakers" is certainly more controversial. [0] The west values democracy and free exchange of ideas, but even in the west failing to uphold those values is not similar to murder.
I am certainly not an expert in Chinese values, but maintaining order and obeying social structure seem to be core values in China. I personally don't think they are worth sacrificing the freedoms the west focuses on, but they are worth trying to keep if you can. Those values would not disallow "Kafkaesque totalitarianism" and "Shouting-down opponent speakers".
[0]: I think wrapping the much less clear cases in between murder and child rape is at worst bad-faith arguing and at best revealing of intense biases.
Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#96The thing that many people in the West do not realize is that exposure to Western media actually hardens Chinese perceptions. There are many examples of Chinese students who lived many years in China whose perceptions of their homeland is far different than what they see is being portrayed on CNN/Fox, etc. The reason why this occurs is not that CNN/Fox are factually incorrect but that they tend to focus on sensationa…
PRC Chinese have been conditioned into a certain mindset about news that doesn’t exist anywhere else.
Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#97I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…
Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
They also have a reputation of carrying billions of people out from poverty and to prosperity. Of course the credit mostly goes to the people, but still it's something. Sure I don't like the censorship and change narratives, but most governments do the same thing. Let me know if you find one government that is both competent and honest.
There's none. That's why people rely on elections and news to hear about events even if they are not favourable to the government. Better informed people can then keep the bastards honest. When you don't have either, what can you do about it?
I don't fully agree with censorship (they do serve some good I must say that), but it's not black and white. I'm also very pessimistic about "better-informed" people. Receiving news from different sources doesn't make you just. You can't receive A and B and just average them.
Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#99Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah I pretty much agree with you. It's very difficult to rule a large country as China and Chinese people generally respect that. Also like you said, the failure of those color revolutions just showed other people how important stable is.
I don't think it is correct. Chinese people truly are in a support of China's leaders and China's policies, just like Soviet people were in support of the Soviet policies. Had it not been the case, there would have been no government capable of stopping the rebellion: if one solider can control a 100 citizens (via say bullets) then in order to control 1.3 billion, China would need to give bullets to 130 million peopl…