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Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

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Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#111
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those of you (US) with large stock/cash positions: what are you doing to weather the (inevitable) storm I follow the traditional advice of doing nothing and not trying to time the market.

Yeah I get that. What about for people like me who are trying to enter the market? I'm wondering if it's worth it to wait and see, or if I should just not worry too much and invest now anyway.

Time in market beats timing the market.

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#112
post #96
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no electronic cash account they can put up? If not, why not, and why can't we enable something like that so people aren't forced to buy bonds in order to hold cash?

It would be counter productive to society. Put money in a bank, the bank lends it out, the money serves society buy financing a new business or perhaps consumption but either way it is doing something. Lend it to the government in the form of bonds and they'll spend it on something. If it just goes into the cash account you're describing, it does nothing but exist, in the event of recessions this would be severely da…

That makes sense but I have a follow up question. What forces this? For example, what's to stop a single entity from reaping the rewards of using cash while everyone else buys bonds to keep the economy moving. Is it a government regulation? an agreement between large institutions? or are the gains to each individual entity large enough that the negative yield is worth it?

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#113
post #96
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no electronic cash account they can put up? If not, why not, and why can't we enable something like that so people aren't forced to buy bonds in order to hold cash?

It would be counter productive to society. Put money in a bank, the bank lends it out, the money serves society buy financing a new business or perhaps consumption but either way it is doing something. Lend it to the government in the form of bonds and they'll spend it on something. If it just goes into the cash account you're describing, it does nothing but exist, in the event of recessions this would be severely da…

This is sort of correct, but it also doesn't address the point that this setup can't exist, logically, with fiat currency.

There is no way to hold money that isn't ultimately lent to or borrowed from some other entity. You can store cash under your mattress, but even that's money that you've effectively lent to the government (the seigniorage of storing it under your mattress means that you've now given them the ability to print that same amount of money at zero extra cost).

This is harder to wrap your head around, but once you understand the principle - money is always at work, no matter what form it's in - it's a lot easier to understand the flow of money on a macro or international scale.

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#114
post #99
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only - AFAIR the Colombian Steve Jobs had problems with humidity too - 2.1 billion 80s' USD lost to flooding and rotting is what I would call real liquidity :D And also rats I think.

It’s extremely insulting to refer to Escobar as the Colombian Steve Jobs, if that is the connection you are making.

Escobar conservatively killed thousands of people. I wouldn't worry too much about insulting him.

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#115
post #108
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be counter productive to society. Put money in a bank, the bank lends it out, the money serves society buy financing a new business or perhaps consumption but either way it is doing something. Lend it to the government in the form of bonds and they'll spend it on something. If it just goes into the cash account you're describing, it does nothing but exist, in the event of recessions this would be severely da…

So people should be forced to invest their money even if they don't think any of the ventures are worthwhile? And physical cash shouldn't exist either?

> So people should be forced to invest their money even if they don't think any of the ventures are worthwhile? And physical cash shouldn't exist either?

Physical cash is also debt (backed by the full faith and credit of the US government, in the case of the US, or the relevant issuer in the case of other fiat currencies).

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#116
post #95
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the S&P 500 index from early 2008 to say 2012. Governments will enact policies to prop up the stock and bond markets, as they always have. Our entire civilization is held up on the promise that financial market indices go up over time, except for temporary recessionary periods. We just accept that retirees cashing out at the wrong time will be victims of 'collateral damage' during these 'market corrections'.…

People who bought the Nikkei index in the early 1990s are still waiting for the correction to end...

Good point. The Japan case is a weird one. There's a Paul Krugman essay from the '90s that argues it's partially due to a historically high savings rate among Japanese consumers[0]. A good chunk of their boom was export-driven after all.

Loosening monetary policy to fight deflationary pressure in the '90s also didn't seem to work because interest rates were already near zero. I think the US is different because the benchmark Fed rate is 2.25% now after many years of near-zero rates. So there's room to cut rates if needed.

[0]: http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/nikkei.html

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#117
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would a derivatives exchange not accept cash? what are people buying those derivatives with? Furthermore, how could any bond (or anything at all for that matter) be less risky than cash? the market value of a bond may change over time but $1 will always be worth $1. Inflation may change the purchasing power of that dollar but then the exact same mechanism will effect the bonds as well.

Cash has risks: * risk of physical destruction * risk of physical theft * risk of forgery etc etc There's some nonzero cost to accept, handle, vet, store, etc for cash. That's not even including if there are extra reporting laws or other for large amounts of cash, which just adds to the overhead.

[deleted]

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#118
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of financial transactions and central clearinghouses require participants to post collateral. For example if an insurance company enters into an interest rate swap with a bank, both sides will have to post some percent of the contract's notional value in escrow. This protects both sides from counterparty risk (i.e. what if the insurance company goes out of business and can't pay its side of the swap). The colla…

There's no electronic cash account they can put up? If not, why not, and why can't we enable something like that so people aren't forced to buy bonds in order to hold cash?

People can hold cash in bank accounts but they also yield negative interest rates (for balances above some threshold).

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#119

I feel like I still don't understand negative yields, despite really trying to. Negative yields means that I put in $X (or euro/whatever germany is using) and I later am guarenteed no more than $Y out of the exchange, where Y < X. I am literally guaranteed to lose money. I could just hold on to my money, "keep it under my mattress" and still make a better ROI than bonds with negative yields. Why would anybody buy the…

putting cash under your mattress has security costs. For 1M euro, there is a real security cost to keeping that amount of cash safe for 30 years.

I may be totally wrong, but I think the floor on negative yields is going to be the security costs of keeping cash for that timeframe.

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#120
So it is a zero coupon bond sold above par, but this doesn't mean the bank isn't making money off of it. There are a lot of technical reasons that these can be purchased (such as a tax advantaged stutus or a requirement to hold certain duration on a portfolio). I'm an expert on German bond market, but I expect the actual yield to be positive after taking into account other factors (or there being some regulatory reason). Last time I saw an article on a negative yield mortgage, there were tax resons it was actually coming out positive.
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