Live data from Hacker News

Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

wsj.com

61–70 of 314 posts

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#61

I feel like I still don't understand negative yields, despite really trying to. Negative yields means that I put in $X (or euro/whatever germany is using) and I later am guarenteed no more than $Y out of the exchange, where Y < X. I am literally guaranteed to lose money. I could just hold on to my money, "keep it under my mattress" and still make a better ROI than bonds with negative yields. Why would anybody buy the…

Well, bonds are easier to deal with than cash AND you do not run the risk of binge-spending them.

In some sense, bonds “do not burn” whereas your house may, or tour bank account may collapse, etc.

The premium is the guarantee.

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#62
post #21
post #3

Those of you (US) with large stock/cash positions: what are you doing to weather the (inevitable) storm? Feels like we’re in the doom and gloom media phase. I suspect lots of people will start forgetting within the next 6 months in which the stock market will go sideways, until the next catalyst which is the US election cycle.

> Those of you (US) with large stock/cash positions: what are you doing to weather the (inevitable) storm I follow the traditional advice of doing nothing and not trying to time the market.

Yeah I get that. What about for people like me who are trying to enter the market? I'm wondering if it's worth it to wait and see, or if I should just not worry too much and invest now anyway.

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of financial transactions and central clearinghouses require participants to post collateral. For example if an insurance company enters into an interest rate swap with a bank, both sides will have to post some percent of the contract's notional value in escrow. This protects both sides from counterparty risk (i.e. what if the insurance company goes out of business and can't pay its side of the swap). The colla…

Why would a derivatives exchange not accept cash? what are people buying those derivatives with? Furthermore, how could any bond (or anything at all for that matter) be less risky than cash? the market value of a bond may change over time but $1 will always be worth $1. Inflation may change the purchasing power of that dollar but then the exact same mechanism will effect the bonds as well.

A large amount of cash is expensive to store safely (fire) and securely (theft).

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#64
post #38

Do you think it's a good idea to put some savings in gold?

As with any investment, don't put in more than you feel you can afford to lose.

While gold and precious metals assets can appreciate in these times, at some point paper gains need to be converted into cash, so make sure you can liquidate your holdings if you need to. Many crypto investors for example have been burned by being unable to convert their gains into cash due to exchange related shenanigans.

I'd guess the gold market is more mature in that regard, but I've never invested so I don't know what it's like for consumer-level investors.

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#65
post #3

Those of you (US) with large stock/cash positions: what are you doing to weather the (inevitable) storm? Feels like we’re in the doom and gloom media phase. I suspect lots of people will start forgetting within the next 6 months in which the stock market will go sideways, until the next catalyst which is the US election cycle.

>> what are you doing to weather the (inevitable) storm

Investing every two weeks into my standard allocation that I've decided on, rebalancing when necessary. Anything beyond that is speculation. Especially the concept of an inevitable storm coming. When, how, and where that happens is not something too many people know.

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#66

I feel like I still don't understand negative yields, despite really trying to. Negative yields means that I put in $X (or euro/whatever germany is using) and I later am guarenteed no more than $Y out of the exchange, where Y < X. I am literally guaranteed to lose money. I could just hold on to my money, "keep it under my mattress" and still make a better ROI than bonds with negative yields. Why would anybody buy the…

> I feel like I still don't understand negative yields, despite really trying to.

There isn't anything to understand. It's banking lunacy.

You only put money into negative yields if you are forced to do it.

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#67

I feel like I still don't understand negative yields, despite really trying to. Negative yields means that I put in $X (or euro/whatever germany is using) and I later am guarenteed no more than $Y out of the exchange, where Y < X. I am literally guaranteed to lose money. I could just hold on to my money, "keep it under my mattress" and still make a better ROI than bonds with negative yields. Why would anybody buy the…

There are dozens of answers here that explain why institutions buy sovereign debt, in general. What those comments don't explain is why anyone would buy this particular sovereign debt. So: why would anyone buy negative-interest-rate German bonds when U.S. Treasury bonds still have positive interest rates, and are available in much higher volumes?

Because you’re a European and have to pay your taxes (or your investors, or other people) in euros, so don’t want any exposure to the Euro/Dollar exchange rate.

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#68
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those of you (US) with large stock/cash positions: what are you doing to weather the (inevitable) storm I follow the traditional advice of doing nothing and not trying to time the market.

Yeah I get that. What about for people like me who are trying to enter the market? I'm wondering if it's worth it to wait and see, or if I should just not worry too much and invest now anyway.

The next $1000 I put into my retirement accounts is no different than your first $1000.

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#69

I feel like I still don't understand negative yields, despite really trying to. Negative yields means that I put in $X (or euro/whatever germany is using) and I later am guarenteed no more than $Y out of the exchange, where Y < X. I am literally guaranteed to lose money. I could just hold on to my money, "keep it under my mattress" and still make a better ROI than bonds with negative yields. Why would anybody buy the…

Your confusion comes from focusing too much on what happens at maturity.

This is the least important thing here.

Bonds have two ways of providing a return. The yield, and the price of the bond itself.

Lower yield means greater price of the bond. They are always inversely correlated.

Even lower yield means even greater price of the bond.

Because of worldwide policies, Its a bond bull market. The greatest bond bull market of all time and there is no exit.

Government creates new bonds at market price. Their independent Central Bank buys those bonds at market price giving newly created money to the government or traders. Market price is always a premium to the prior price. This action devalues the currency, otherwise known as causes inflation, otherwise known as people’s share in the currency stock is diluted.

So nobody needs to care about the yield. Nobody is thinking “well golly I’m going to use a few fractions of a dollar for the next 30 years” theyre thinking bonds to the fckin moon

Buy high sell higher directly to the central bank.

Benign attempts at economic stimulus have turned into a full blown currency war between monetary unions and nation states. The whole point is to get people to think “hm maybe my money isnt doing so well in a bank or in my mattress, maybe I should circulate it in risky investments” , and since people are so willing to pay for the privilege not to do that, the yields will go deeper negative. This prompts other monetary unions to cry foul and consider these actions unfair and uncompetitive, and so they do the same thing to devalue their currency to compete.

Any time you hear someone talk about responding to currency manipulators or reacting to the trade war by lowering rates or devaluing their own currency, just remember:

Bond. Bull. Market.

Re: Germany for First Time Sells 30-Year Bonds Offering Negative Yields

#70
post #27

I’m starting to entertain the idea of a massive bubble in bonds. Is inflation really never going to show again? I can’t understand why anyone would want to hold a fiat currency for 30 years for no return. Is it due to portfolio theory where the assumption is stocks and bonds yields have inverse correlation and the way to manage risk is to have a correct ratio? Due to global QE there is too much money floating without…

"Is inflation really never going to show again?"

What causes inflation?

Inflation is too much money chasing too few goods and services.

When populations are growing, you need to expand the money supply to avoid deflation. What happens when populations stop growing?

Post reply on HN