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We Have Ruined Childhood

nytimes.com

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Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#491

Post by Scoutmaster »

Balgair wrote: post #454
Scoutmaster wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That won't be my troop. I'm setting clear expectations to parents from the beginning that they are only there for safety, driving kids, etc. I will make sure every Assistant Scoutmaster and Committee Member knows this. I will do my best to make sure that whomever succeeds me, will do the same including letting their eventual replacement know as well. My goal is to make the Troop self-reliant, not reliant on me. I nee…

Are you in a newish troop then? Growing up, all the troops I heard of were pretty established, some going beack nearly to the BSA founding. Typically they were associated with another organization like a church or an Elk's Lodge type thingy. That said, I hear you on the 'paper eagles'. I saw a lot of kids with their mom just trying to get the rank for college applications and then get out. It was semi-effective. Stra…

My troop is 80+ years old, however I just took over a few months ago. The troop was doing very poorly when I took over: only 7 registered youth, rarely camping, no summer camp in several years, previous Scoutmaster didn't even want to be the Scoutmaster, no Patrol spirit/identity, both the adults and youth had no idea how the program was supposed to work (no Patrol Method, no training, etc).

This was a troop that had a strong program and 30+ youth 15 years ago, chartered by a large-ish church.

I don't think the troop produced any paper-Eagles in those 15 years (I kept in touch), but when I took over, the head of the church asked for better Eagle Projects.

As for girls, I'm fine with that. Character-building isn't only for boys. There is Girl Scouts of the USA (GSA) troops that have good outdoor programs but they are very few and far in-between. They are more known for "glamping" and selling cookies. Gold Award doesn't have the same recognition as Eagle Scout. Something that I found out: GSA troops are not always sponsered by an organization, and those that are sponsered, are not owned by the sponsering organization. In contrast, all BSA troops have a sponsering(chartering) organization and the sponser owns the troop. So, GSA and BSA have different programs and fulfil different needs. It's good that more youth now have more options for personal growth.

If I had a daughter and BSA wasn't available, I would look into American Heritage Girls (a scout-like organization, sometimes called Heritage Scouts) or another program like that. The BSA has had co-ed programs for 14-21 year olds since the 1970s though: Venturing, Varsity, and Explorers. However I think it's just Venturing now, IDK.

FYI, in Cub Scouts, boys and girls are seperated by dens (patrols). In Scouts BSA (renamed from Boy Scouts where youth can earn Eagle), boys and girls are seperated by troops (but can have same number, same chartering org, etc... just separate youth structure).

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#492

Post by mkr-hn »

beauzero wrote: post #414
Upvoter33 wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"and the woods that do remain are typically private property" This is not really true, there are thousands of forests and lands that are public spaces. Whatever the problem is, it's not this.

Depends on which coast you live. West coast, central US lot's of government land (BLM, Forest Service, National Parks, etc.). The east coast, not so much. Most of it is private. It was a shock to me when I moved from Montana to Georgia.

Georgia has a lot of state parks. Sometimes you can get a park pass from the library with your PINES card.

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#493

Post by prirun »

I grew up in the 60's and 70's. To me, the biggest difference is that moms didn't work back then. Instead, they raised the kids. I know dads seem to help a lot more with the house and kids than they did when I was growing up, but it seems common sense that with both parents working, they can't spend as much time with their kids.

This has all kinds of consequences:

- day cares and babysitters are tending kids but aren't really raising them (instilling the parent's values, etc.)

- families eat out more because neither parent feels like cooking after working all day.

- no family time at night because of all the homework being assigned. I never had any homework until high school, but now kids have it in elementary school. Seems nuts.

Screens are a problem, but not just with the kids. I have seen a family of 4 waiting for their table at a restaurant, and both the parents have their face in their phone even when their kids don't have phones. The kids are just looking around, bored and lost, with no one paying attention to them.

I've seen mothers pushing grocery carts, tapping on their phone, and completely ignoring their kid sitting in the grocery cart.

Instead of kids playing with trucks, kids watch other kids play with trucks - on their phone! Weirdest thing I ever heard of...

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#494

Post by [deleted] »

prirun wrote: post #493

I grew up in the 60's and 70's. To me, the biggest difference is that moms didn't work back then. Instead, they raised the kids. I know dads seem to help a lot more with the house and kids than they did when I was growing up, but it seems common sense that with both parents working, they can't spend as much time with their kids. This has all kinds of consequences: - day cares and babysitters are tending kids but aren…

[deleted]

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#495

Post by Iv »

mikekchar wrote: post #258
Iv wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife is Japanese, I thought at first like that, that our son should have a taste of the education system as I'd like him to have both cultures. I am starting to revise that judgement. The culture of obedience and resignation seems diametrically opposed to some notions of the French culture. Indeed, you need to get the Japanese culture completely and uncompromisingly to see what the schools here "teach" in a positi…

> The culture of obedience and resignation seems diametrically opposed to some notions of the French culture. My parents lived in France for a while and still revere parts of French culture, so I'm familiar with it. Honestly I can't imagine having to reconcile that with Japanese culture. I'm often surprised, though, because French people in general seem to do well in Japan -- especially compared to Americans or Briti…

There is a very strange attraction between Japanese and French. A lot of people in both countries magnify each other culture. I think it is partly due to projection but also to a long history of collaboration and exchanges.

It is ridiculously easy to be a French in Japan. A lot of people immediately become very friendly to me when they learn where I am from.

Also, there's one thing I'll concede to Japanese culture: they do take food seriously here! That's also a strong shared point.

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#496

Post by dmje »

Crinus wrote: post #334
dmje wrote: post #293

You guys in the States have it bad. I hear terrible stories about the fear that now surrounds any kind of freedom for kids. Over here in the UK we’re a bit better, but the “give them exams ALL the time” and schools being on their knees, financially, are all too familiar. For me, this journey with my kids has been about a massive slew of things, among the most important: - extending their childhood where possible: enc…

> a large part of this has been about not being constantly distracted when I’m with other people I do not understand this, why would a smartphone distract you if you do not set it up to distract you? Can't you just not install all the distracting software and turn all notifications off? This is how i have my phone (i do not have any "social" app installed, do not allow any notifications and have it in almost constant…

Lots of things, but studies like this as one example: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/08/a-sit...

I still do have a SIM-less smartphone at home for banking / 2FA / etc but the winner for me has been not having it when out and about. I don't want to be taking a photo, I want to be looking at the actual view. I don't want to be looking things up, I want to be chewing through what we think.

It's incredibly easy to think your phone is there as a positive reinforcement but in my personal experience, life is better without, especially when it comes down to giving kids your full attention.

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#497

Post by salawat »

Bartweiss wrote: post #470
ocschwar wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends on where you are. Local cultures differ on this, and the only place stronger than Facebook at encouraging peer-enforced group think is the break room at a police station. If the cops in your town are cool with kids running free, then you're fine. If they're not cool with it, then you have a problem. The other issue is a real concern: what are the prevailing traffic speeds in your neighborhood. I'm i…

> TLDR: avoid the suburbs if you want your kids to run free. A lot of the decline in free-range childhood clicked into place once I realized just how terrible suburbs are for little kids. The roads are the worst part - wide, empty streets that invite speeding, connectivity that make them short-cuts for outside drivers, lots of bends and bushes that obscure the view. But they're not the only major issue. Suburbs are u…

Where is this obsession with cars being the issue come from?

Many a time in the 'burbs, were we playing a game in the street only to quickly scatter to the shout of "Car!", followed by a hasty resumption of whatever we were doing.

There was generally 1 or 2 streets of particular note that you just knew to avoid or not play in due to the fact that it was commonly used as a sacrificial throughway.

And homogeneity? That was half of what taught us how to navigate. You do it based off of street signs. The kids who can't read shouldn't be wandering the streets necessarily anyway, and there was generally enough web of trust in the immediate vicinity where even if you couldn't get home, you could find an adult or another kid to point you in the right direction.

None of what you brought up really strikes me as a problem. It was just normal life skills.

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#498

Post by Balgair »

Scoutmaster wrote: post #491
Balgair wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you in a newish troop then? Growing up, all the troops I heard of were pretty established, some going beack nearly to the BSA founding. Typically they were associated with another organization like a church or an Elk's Lodge type thingy. That said, I hear you on the 'paper eagles'. I saw a lot of kids with their mom just trying to get the rank for college applications and then get out. It was semi-effective. Stra…

My troop is 80+ years old, however I just took over a few months ago. The troop was doing very poorly when I took over: only 7 registered youth, rarely camping, no summer camp in several years, previous Scoutmaster didn't even want to be the Scoutmaster, no Patrol spirit/identity, both the adults and youth had no idea how the program was supposed to work (no Patrol Method, no training, etc). This was a troop that had…

> no summer camp in several years

Good God! Why even bother at that point? Camp is one of the highlights of the scouting year. It would be like skipping Christmas.

Glad to hear you are reviving things. It's a tough road and a lot of lonely work. That said, it'll be worth it a thousand times over for the kiddos.

A lot of older school BSA folks aren't that keen on the girls comming in, which is a bit funny. What with Venture Crews, girls have been a part of BSA Scouting in the US for a while now.

I remember the international jamboreesm and international troops during my time in the scouts. Nearly all other countries have just scouting and do not break it up by sex. As such, they kinda looked at us US scouts a bit askance. Everyone else was just fine with girls/boys around and had little problems (that we knew of at least). It was a new way to look at the world that we hadn't been exposed too. Neckerchief trading with the girls from other countries was a great icebreaker too :)

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#499

Post by vibrio »

jimbokun wrote: post #476
vibrio wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is all pretty US-centric." Is it US-Centric or urban centric? My guess is most of this board falls on the Urban side (Me included). I am unable to apply many of my valuable unstructured rural experiences as a youth to how I want to raise a child in a city. I thing I'd have the same challenge with Rome, Dallas, Barcelona, or most other urban centers.

My kids go to a city high school. They have different kinds of unstructured experiences. After school, they have all kinds of restaurants and coffee shops to choose from. They can hang out at the Jewish Community Center and play FIFA. They sometimes wonder with their friends to a field at a local university to play soccer. They watch movies at the local theatre I only find out about when they mention later what they…

Thanks for this. That sounds pretty nice too. Different. I was thinking about it last night and there are aspects of my youth I very much miss. being able to wander in woods with no-one around. playing hide and go seek with a handful of friends over more than a square mile of hilly-wooded area. Discovering crayfish in creeks or finding an awesome uncharted sledding hill in the winter. that said, my extended family was in a very large city and we visited frequently. One thing I think I resented about my town (though I don't think I knew it specifically) was the lack of some of some of the culture you describe. Plus there are just few people in small cities-the of everyday life cast of characters is very small, repetitious and limiting. That can be odd. Not sure how to explain that better.

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#500

Post by linuxftw »

jefurii wrote: post #443
linuxftw wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of places have charter schools now. Pretty much has come full circle. Nobody uses public school unless they have to.

That's anti-public school FUD paid for by the charter/private school lobby. linuxftw, you remember FUD dont you?

If public schools worth worth a darn, there would be no/little demand for private schools or charter schools.

Public schools are like they cable company. They claim they can only compete if they have an absolute monopoly.

Public schools are dying because public schools are trash. Time to stop throwing our money at that cesspool.

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