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Information operations directed at Hong Kong

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Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#331

Post by taneq »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #288
taneq wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so long as someone is speaking their opinion respectfully and in good faith, it matters not what that opinion is; and that the defense of this necessitates a generous presumption of good faith Isn't that the point of a discussion forum such as HN? > I think it's reasonable to suggest that certain viewpoints are simply not welcome on Hacker News I disagree that contrary viewpoints "no matter how eloquently stated" s…

What about calls to kill all jews, very reasonably and eloquently stated, still welcome? How about calls to have sex with children, still ok with you? What about support and calls for mass shootings, executions and genocide? What happens when supports for these views grow by virtue of them being in people's faces a lot? Plenty of internet communities have been hijacked by these mentalities, usually in some misguided…

Are you saying that there are reasonable, persuasive arguments in favour of any of those things you describe?

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#332

Post by FooBarWidget »

Aeolun wrote: post #321
ospider wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying that the Chinese government is a good government. But a slaving government IS better than warlords. And historically speaking, the current government did unify China in 1949, which is a very important thing in Chinese culture. If we were to overthrow the Chinese government, can we get a better tomorrow for the Chinese people? The west have show us what happened in Middle East. Clearly, wars are not wha…

I don’t think that, practically, countries have often gone from authoritarian to democratic without violence.

Ahem. South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan. They were authoritarian before they were democratic.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#333

Post by throwaway2048 »

taneq wrote: post #331
throwaway2048 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about calls to kill all jews, very reasonably and eloquently stated, still welcome? How about calls to have sex with children, still ok with you? What about support and calls for mass shootings, executions and genocide? What happens when supports for these views grow by virtue of them being in people's faces a lot? Plenty of internet communities have been hijacked by these mentalities, usually in some misguided…

Are you saying that there are reasonable, persuasive arguments in favour of any of those things you describe?

There have been "reasonable" persuasive arguments that have convinced millions of people. Its especially relevant as China is committing a mass imprisonment campaign against an entire ethnicity, should defense of that be welcomed as just another point of view, equally valid and encouraged?

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#334

Post by [deleted] »

tareqak wrote: post #78
CobrastanJorji wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, wait...is the BBC no longer allowed to advertise upcoming shows on Twitter?

I was confused about this part too, but that link does have this: > This policy will not apply to taxpayer-funded entities, including independent public broadcasters. Britain's BBC, Canada's CBC, and the US PBS should be covered by that. Actually, what's to stop China from making their news agency tax-payer funded to take advantage of this exception?

[deleted]

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#335

Post by dang »

phs318u wrote: post #260
dang wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two site guidelines that apply to this. First, it's not ok to use HN primarily for political, ideological, or national battle. If a commenter is posting as you describe, we ask them to stop. Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20727426 . But by no means does it follow that a commenter behaving that way must be a sockpuppet, astroturfer, shill, spy, foreign agent, etc. That's where the second guide…

I contend it’s unavoidable that all sites such as HN will tend towards Slashdot over time. The fundamental reason for this is that any appeal to respect the commons and allow others free use of it, will only fall on the ears of the respectful users of said commons. Other users will exploit the freedoms afforded by the commons to indirectly deny others said freedoms or to “poison” the commons against reasonable users.…

That's the default for sure. But consider that (a) HN started as an experiment in avoiding that outcome (see https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html and https://news.ycombinator.com/hackernews.html), and (b) it has managed to avoid it (mas o menos) for 12 years now. Doom may be inevitable (https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...), but 12 is a large number of internet years. I think it's safe to say that we've avoided at least the cruder versions of that phenomenon. And we've learned a lot in the process, so all is not yet lost.

The best way to not succumb to pathogens is for the community culture to build up strength to handle them. The real enemy is not the pathogens, but our own weak immunity to them. The strength we need most right now is for HN users to resist the temptation to call others astroturfers or spies simply because they hold opposing views—and to explain to fellow users that the rules here ask us not to do that, no matter how wrong the opposing view may be or feel.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#336

Post by adamsea »

olalonde wrote: post #278
woah wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even here on Hacker News, a week or so ago I saw someone being chided for “breaking the HN guidelines” by calling out a sock puppet. When I looked at the comment history of the account doing the chiding, all of its comments were on China related articles, taking a pro-China view.

I saw the comment you are referring to and it was most likely wrong. The majority of Chinese people are genuinely "pro-China" and there are vastly more regular Chinese people than professional sockpuppets. That being said, I do agree with keeping politics off HN and wish it was enforced a bit more strictly.

Intentionally or not, I believe not talking about politics is politics, because not talking about something strengthens whatever the status quo - good or bad - at that time is.

I’m not advocating for constant political discussions on hacker news. But to pretend that technology can be separated from politics is to hold a false belief about reality.

Politics is fundamentally about social groups, power, and the ethical beliefs and norms of groups of people.

I believe that cultivating civility, genuine listening, and self-doubt in our hacker news community would ultimately be more constructive than pretending that our action or inaction - especially as technologists in this day and age - has no effect on our fellow human beings.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#337

Post by shawndrost »

ospider wrote: post #237
ryanchankh wrote: post #22

HongKonger here. I have some friends in China posting similar anti-protest posts on WeChat social media. It's like the news they read has a completely different story than what it's being told in legitimate new sources. The problem of fake news does become very apparent, and I hope people in China can eventually gain awareness or at least start to question the validity of their news sources.

Native Chinese here. Hacker news have been a great place to learn new things to me for 5 years. But the political views on Hacker news are somewhat naive to me. It seems that the Chinese Government is always evil and wrong, but why haven't the government collapsed after so many years if there were no people supporting them? People in China, at least those millions people who are able to cross the Great Firewall, know…

Really interesting to read about your perspective. Thank you for sharing.

Quick follow-up question. Do you believe this [1] is a legitimate transmission from the CCP? What are your thoughts about it?

[1] https://pincong.rocks/article/3572

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#338

Post by adamsea »

0x8BADF00D wrote: post #298
liuliu wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, they cannot be renditioned. That's what this protest is about. Yes. It is upset. It is also upsetting that the U.S. actually have limited due process as well (thus, can forfeit the asset without due process). There are practical reasons why, but it is still ideologically upsetting.

Due process and rule of law can never really exist in Asian countries. It simply is not a part of the shared history and political economy. It is a fundamentally Western tradition, which is why it never works in non-Western countries. My father would often tell me stories of growing up in India during Indira Gandhi and how rule of law never really existed there. It is a philosophy that is fundamentally incompatible w…

Homie.

Chill.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#339

Post by selectodude »

oefrha wrote: post #327
ddlsmurf wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there another actor than the state in China that can get unfiltered mainland IPs ?

If you use Google Fi’s cellular data in China, you can access sites typically blocked by GFW (source: first hand experience). So I assume the answer is yes. Not sure which entities have such access though. Edit: IIRC some local friends from Peking University and Tsinghua University once told me that they could use Google and stuff (also typically out of reach) from their college dorms.

All foreign roaming users can get through the GFW. The local carrier sends everything through what is basically a VPN to your home cell carrier so it can be properly billed. A popular way to get around GFW for those with money is to use an HK cell phone in China.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#340

Post by xster »

dang wrote: post #160
woah wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even here on Hacker News, a week or so ago I saw someone being chided for “breaking the HN guidelines” by calling out a sock puppet. When I looked at the comment history of the account doing the chiding, all of its comments were on China related articles, taking a pro-China view.

There are two site guidelines that apply to this. First, it's not ok to use HN primarily for political, ideological, or national battle. If a commenter is posting as you describe, we ask them to stop. Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20727426 . But by no means does it follow that a commenter behaving that way must be a sockpuppet, astroturfer, shill, spy, foreign agent, etc. That's where the second guide…

Thank you for treating your authority and influence with diligence and respect. It's perhaps unsatisfactory and laborious but the world is better for it. Thank you.
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