Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Information operations directed at Hong Kong

blog.twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 480 posts

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#281

Post by bobjordan »

ddevault wrote: post #276
bobjordan wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In the case of Hong Kong, the ideals at risk here are the right to self-governance." American here using a VPN from China, not an operative. My view after 10 years in China with businesses in China and Hong Kong, is that it is useful to think about Hong Kong similarly to a USA state. It's a state where the people inside can exit into China at will, while all the other people in all the other states in China must get…

[flagged]

Haha, I'd rather you would have seen me in the Chinese police station last year, absolutely furious and further raising hell in a yelling match with the local Chief of Police after he raised his voice at my Chinese partner. Had a similar experience when my Chinese resident permit was delayed for a dumb reason, causing me to miss my daughter's high school graduation in the USA.

I'm not afraid to say exactly what I think when it needs said, and I've said what I truly think here.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#282

Post by LilBytes »

chrischen wrote: post #257
LilBytes wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dispute this. Democracy is not advertised as the only acceptable form of Government, but it is the fairest and best model we've got. You're creating a straw-man with this argument.

Firstly, I'm not arguing anything, so there is no straw man. Obviously it's not the only form of government, but we are told that it's the only one that's acceptable. There's no objective evaluation and consideration of any alternative political systems. You prove my point. The idea that it's the fairest and best is also subjective. A government gets its authority from the people, and if the Chinese grant authority t…

I'm not an advocate for the US Political system. Having grown up in Europe and moved to Australia. Therefore your assumptions that I'd use the US as the benchmark I set for my democratic wishes is misguided and the majority of your argument falls flat as a consequence. Democracy allows the very thing your discouraging, _choice_.

Your democracy or rather the US democracy is not my own. And for the arguments you've made, I agree. Fortunately I don't live in the US and never have. Likely never will.

Your criticisms of the US version of Democracy are valid, fortunately Democracy allows that recourse and discussion if not out right encourages it. The Chinese political system I cannot imagine would be so welcoming of this type of discourse.

That you defend and disguise the Chinese Dictatorship as a potential alternative to Democracy, this argument leaves me flabbergasted.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#283

Post by girvo »

khawkins wrote: post #136
tmux314 wrote: post #42

Good on Twitter and Facebook. On top of blocking thousands of websites (which includes Facebook, Google, Twitter) China's government employs thousands of government employees just to purge even the most mild criticism of the CCP on Weibo [1]. They also employ tens of thousands to export their propaganda overseas, using sock puppet accounts to push their worldview[2]. And their worldview is fiercely anti-democratic. T…

>The Internet cannot remain free if we allow governments to use their power to control narratives and suppress the truth. I wish more people applied this same line of reasoning towards the US-based social media companies themselves. If we hold true that Twitter's influence is so powerful that world superpowers are gaming it effectively to control narratives, then why aren't people more outraged at the near constant c…

Twitter can't "disappear" me in real life. That's the difference, I think?

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#284

Post by rickycook »

daveheq wrote: post #215
tmux314 wrote: post #42

Good on Twitter and Facebook. On top of blocking thousands of websites (which includes Facebook, Google, Twitter) China's government employs thousands of government employees just to purge even the most mild criticism of the CCP on Weibo [1]. They also employ tens of thousands to export their propaganda overseas, using sock puppet accounts to push their worldview[2]. And their worldview is fiercely anti-democratic. T…

The US mainstream media is bought and paid for by corporations, who don't have the public good in mind, but maximizing profit at the expense of all else including reporting on corruption, oligarchy, and environmental abuse. The government should not control the media, but neither should advertisers.

true, and that’s definitely a problem, but government is a bigger issue because they have the ability to force a population: corporations can only influence (we can have a different discussion about how corporations give you “choice” but not really, but i think they’re different cases, and government is clear cut)

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#285

Post by girvo »

egdod wrote: post #280
Leary wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because a government is abusive to some of its people doesn't mean it has no value. Just look at the US

The US government isn't abusive to its people though.

You can make a decent argument that it has been, and definitely is sometimes, for certain definitions of "government" and subsections of people.

Whataboutism is lazy though, and I do find it telling that the go-to argument a lot of pro-China commenters across platforms use is exactly that...

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#286

Post by ospider »

ryacko wrote: post #249
ospider wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Native Chinese here. Hacker news have been a great place to learn new things to me for 5 years. But the political views on Hacker news are somewhat naive to me. It seems that the Chinese Government is always evil and wrong, but why haven't the government collapsed after so many years if there were no people supporting them? People in China, at least those millions people who are able to cross the Great Firewall, know…

People generally are naive. Many things can be said about that, I recommend reading Leary’s eight-circuit model of consciousness. Why do people support bad governments? I recommend reading about Havel's greengrocer. Obviously the Chinese government is capable of doing some things right or it would, as you say, collapse.

Thanks, books added to my reading list.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#287

Post by egdod »

girvo wrote: post #285
egdod wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government isn't abusive to its people though.

You can make a decent argument that it has been, and definitely is sometimes, for certain definitions of "government" and subsections of people. Whataboutism is lazy though, and I do find it telling that the go-to argument a lot of pro-China commenters across platforms use is exactly that...

When slavery was legal, sure. But in the last, say, 50 years (e.g., since the 64 Civil Rights Act)? I don't see it.

Also, I'm not aware of multiple definitions for the US government.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#288

Post by throwaway2048 »

taneq wrote: post #277
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your principles seem to be summed up as: so long as someone is speaking their opinion respectfully and in good faith, it matters not what that opinion is; and that the defense of this necessitates a generous presumption of good faith. We must acknowledge that HN carries a substantial degree of influence, and consider how to responsibly wield that influence. The readers here are a lucractive demographic - generally we…

> so long as someone is speaking their opinion respectfully and in good faith, it matters not what that opinion is; and that the defense of this necessitates a generous presumption of good faith Isn't that the point of a discussion forum such as HN? > I think it's reasonable to suggest that certain viewpoints are simply not welcome on Hacker News I disagree that contrary viewpoints "no matter how eloquently stated" s…

What about calls to kill all jews, very reasonably and eloquently stated, still welcome?

How about calls to have sex with children, still ok with you?

What about support and calls for mass shootings, executions and genocide?

What happens when supports for these views grow by virtue of them being in people's faces a lot?

Plenty of internet communities have been hijacked by these mentalities, usually in some misguided idea about free speech.

Giving disgusting bullshit a platform almost axiomatically elevates it, legitimizes it and creates support for it, pretending things are just a marketplace of ideas, and all we have to do is "be civil" is an almost total abdication of responsibility.

Edit: how about the people down voting this answer if conversations, conducted civilly and in good faith, should be allowed about topics like this, if you are going to have a stance that nothing should barred, you better be able to think about and discuss what about the worst of the worst, not live in some fantasy land where people don't seriously believe some truly horrific things.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#289

Post by pstuart »

olalonde wrote: post #278
woah wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even here on Hacker News, a week or so ago I saw someone being chided for “breaking the HN guidelines” by calling out a sock puppet. When I looked at the comment history of the account doing the chiding, all of its comments were on China related articles, taking a pro-China view.

I saw the comment you are referring to and it was most likely wrong. The majority of Chinese people are genuinely "pro-China" and there are vastly more regular Chinese people than professional sockpuppets. That being said, I do agree with keeping politics off HN and wish it was enforced a bit more strictly.

Information warfare is both political and technological. It's happening all about and is worth discussing in a mindful manner.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#290

Post by LilBytes »

hker wrote: post #207

For those who want to understand the bigger picture of this propaganda campaign, check out this allegedly leaked instruction for how China controls media (picture in Chinese [1], transcribed in Chinese [2], google translated to English [3]). [1]: https://pincong.rocks/article/3572 [2]: https://pastebin.com/anMtU0Lz [3]: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u...

[3] - what a read.

"5. Video images of excessive use of force by police from outside the country must be promptly blocked and deleted at the first time, and it is absolutely forbidden to spread on WeChat and any social media."

Post reply on HN