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A parrot has a question for humans

nautil.us

51–60 of 75 posts

Re: A parrot has a question for humans

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We know a lot about the language of large ocean mammals but it's just not as one to one with how we would translate it. Well, not exactly.In fact, we still know surprisingly little. For the humpback song, one of the most studied topics up to date, there is still a major disagreement if it is a reproductive display or something else.Humpbacks make tons of other sounds as well, those have not been studied as much as t…

Sorry, that was a bit unclear. I meant that we have studied a lot but that doesn't scratch the surface of whats there. So much distance, such a wide range of movement, and hidden social activity that while we can listen its hard to see the environmental context to decode it. They can communicate with us pretty ok. Notorious acid head government contract grifter John Lilly's assistant [0] got a young male dolphin to s…

Oh, yes, Dr. Lilly and his NASA funded study. All acid, sex and other things aside, some of the stuff he did was indeed interesting, if only to get to know dolphins in a way impossible in the wild. There was one NPR interview with Margaret some time ago, she mentioned that Peter (the dolphin she worked with) was absolutely captivated by her knees. He would echolocate on them and investigate them constantly. If you think about it, dolphins must know each other's anatomy pretty well due to their echolocation abilities. So a human knee (having no analog anywhere in a dolphin's body) was the constant focus of Peter's interest. But wild dolphins do not seem to be captivated by human knees, so this difference in their motivation is very interesting. In fact, the question about curiosity and motivation to communicate is a important one, even if we do a playback and use all correct sequences, if the dolphin is not motivated to reply in any way, the experiment will fail and we will never know why.

Re: A parrot has a question for humans

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dolphins seem particularly promising!

Yet, after nearly 5 decades of research we are still unable to crack their code. We do know however that some sequences they make do not seem to be random.Our problem is to penetrate the communication system that is not visually based,and is purely acoustical. Shameless self-plug: we are working on it, combining citizen science and AI. Our plarform goes live in a few weeks.

I'll pull the plug; any suggestions for further reading?

> Our problem is to penetrate the communication system that is not visually based,and is purely acoustical.

Given our depth in knowledge in acoustics, I'm hoping you can expand a little on this

Re: A parrot has a question for humans

#53
I can't think of an interesting and important question one could ask a non-human, except (if it's an alien) "how to do cold fusion" or "how to live forever", ie specific technological stuff.

Really, what do we expect to hear from monkeys and dolphins deciphering their language? Give them a small talk on the current Bitcoin prices or ask what they think about the next elections? I suspect in the end it'll lead to something like "How are you? I'm fine!"

Maybe it's just me though.

Re: A parrot has a question for humans

#54
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stanisław Lem's Sci-Fi focused on that concept a lot - that yes, we might find intelligent life in the universe, but it might be so completely different, so alien to us, that any form of communication is not as much impossible, but simply pointless.

Stanislaw Lem 1921-2006 https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/weekly-standard/stanislaw... > Lem's IQ, as he mentioned in passing in an autobiographical essay ( it was measured when he was in high school ), was above 180, but no one who read many of his books needed that datum to conclude that here was an unusually powerful and wide-ranging intelligence. The son of a physician, Lem was trained in the sciences. Biology w…

I remembered one more, just a very short story, nothing as exciting as the books:

EDIT (Thanks @yeellow): Pilot Pirx => Ijon Tichy (how could I mix them up? Well, it's been two decades or so since I last read them)

- ~~Pilot Pirx~~ Ijon Tichy series: I remember a short story from the "Ijon Tichy" series of stories (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star_Diaries): It started with a microphone being lowered to onto the surface of an extremely hot planet (hotter than Venus) and a conversation was recorded, I think it was a student and a teacher, or it was between scholars of that alien race. Of course, already it is clear that this wasn't about any reality-based-fiction, the whole setup was just to show human thought in a mirror by letting the conversation come from aliens. In the conversation the rogue (student? scientist? I don't remember) proposes that there could be life on planets that are much colder than their own. This obviously preposterous idea (haha) is shot down by the other party in the conversation and exposed as silly nonsense contradicting science (of that hot world).

By the way, unrelated to the current subject but possibly one of the best stories ever written, is the Ijon Tichy story where he is alone in his space shit and a tiny meteor destroys the controls. It takes two people to repair the damage though, one inside, one outside the space ship - simultaneously. He knows about some time altering vortexes and manages to fiddle with the engines to fly through them. Each time he flies through one of those vortexes there are multiple versions of himself on the space ship, for example his Wednesday and his Saturday version. The story is about his difficulty recruiting himself for the repairs. It's hilarious! It starts with him waking in the middle of deep sleep because somebody who looks like him is shaking him. In his sleepy state he forgot all about the time vortexes and he thinks he's dreaming. So he refuses to move because "damage repaired during a dream is not really repaired, so I may as well just keep sleeping". The next day he has the exact opposite problem: He finds himself sleeping and tries to convince his previous-day version to do the repairs together, without success of course. That's just the start though, more and more versions of himself appear and disappear...

EDIT:

Found the time vortex story (in full): https://english.lem.pl/works/novels/the-star-diaries/154-the...

Re: A parrot has a question for humans

#55
post #53

I can't think of an interesting and important question one could ask a non-human, except (if it's an alien) "how to do cold fusion" or "how to live forever", ie specific technological stuff. Really, what do we expect to hear from monkeys and dolphins deciphering their language? Give them a small talk on the current Bitcoin prices or ask what they think about the next elections? I suspect in the end it'll lead to some…

You could ask them the same things you ask any human, but get radically different (and perhaps very interesting) answers.

You could look at their art, listen to their music, learn their philosophy - assuming they have any of that, and that it's comprehensible to us.

Re: A parrot has a question for humans

#56
post #24
post #9

Years and years ago, there was an aol live chat with Koko, the gorilla who could sign. An early experimental cross species AMA. The crowd mostly asked questions like "is there a god?" The ape generally replied that she was bored and wanted food. Gray parrots and corvids and dolphins and squids are exceptionally fascinating and worth studying. They aren't the same as the mythologized first contact people are hoping fo…

On Koko... Koko's not all she's cracked up to be. Although there is a lot of non-scientific media that talks about her language abilities, there actually aren't very many scientific/peer reviewed articles on her, something that is the source of some contention. With Koko/many other talking apes the handler does a LOT of interpretation for the sign language, to the point that it starts to feel a bit like reading tea l…

I don't think the researcher means to imply Koko understands rhymes. Rather her hearing is not fine-tuned enough to hear the subtle difference between the sounds "nipple" and "people". So she uses them interchangeably.

Re: A parrot has a question for humans

#57
post #55
post #53

I can't think of an interesting and important question one could ask a non-human, except (if it's an alien) "how to do cold fusion" or "how to live forever", ie specific technological stuff. Really, what do we expect to hear from monkeys and dolphins deciphering their language? Give them a small talk on the current Bitcoin prices or ask what they think about the next elections? I suspect in the end it'll lead to some…

You could ask them the same things you ask any human, but get radically different (and perhaps very interesting) answers. You could look at their art, listen to their music, learn their philosophy - assuming they have any of that, and that it's comprehensible to us.

Agree, new art, new music, new philosophy (I personally don't expect it to be much different from ours). But will it have any important effect on average human life ever?

Re: A parrot has a question for humans

#58
post #54
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stanislaw Lem 1921-2006 https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/weekly-standard/stanislaw... > Lem's IQ, as he mentioned in passing in an autobiographical essay ( it was measured when he was in high school ), was above 180, but no one who read many of his books needed that datum to conclude that here was an unusually powerful and wide-ranging intelligence. The son of a physician, Lem was trained in the sciences. Biology w…

I remembered one more, just a very short story, nothing as exciting as the books: EDIT (Thanks @yeellow): Pilot Pirx => Ijon Tichy (how could I mix them up? Well, it's been two decades or so since I last read them) - ~~Pilot Pirx~~ Ijon Tichy series: I remember a short story from the "Ijon Tichy" series of stories ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star_Diaries ): It started with a microphone being lowered to onto t…

Lem's books are great but the hero you refer to is Ijon Tichy. Pilot Pirx is also Lem's character but stories on him are classical sf. Pirx is also a main character in Fiasco, Lem's last sf book.

Re: A parrot has a question for humans

#59
post #55
post #53

I can't think of an interesting and important question one could ask a non-human, except (if it's an alien) "how to do cold fusion" or "how to live forever", ie specific technological stuff. Really, what do we expect to hear from monkeys and dolphins deciphering their language? Give them a small talk on the current Bitcoin prices or ask what they think about the next elections? I suspect in the end it'll lead to some…

You could ask them the same things you ask any human, but get radically different (and perhaps very interesting) answers. You could look at their art, listen to their music, learn their philosophy - assuming they have any of that, and that it's comprehensible to us.

I would be unsurprised if some other species had oral histories. It seems that elephants and crows are able to communicate about specific locations and people while their referents aren't around.

Re: A parrot has a question for humans

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet, after nearly 5 decades of research we are still unable to crack their code. We do know however that some sequences they make do not seem to be random.Our problem is to penetrate the communication system that is not visually based,and is purely acoustical. Shameless self-plug: we are working on it, combining citizen science and AI. Our plarform goes live in a few weeks.

I'll pull the plug; any suggestions for further reading? > Our problem is to penetrate the communication system that is not visually based,and is purely acoustical. Given our depth in knowledge in acoustics, I'm hoping you can expand a little on this

>any suggestions for further reading?

"Deep Thinkers" is a good recent book, you can check it out (https://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/D/bo27...)

>Given our depth in knowledge in acoustics, I'm hoping you can expand a little on this

Our challenge is that we are visual species who are trying to understand “acoustic” species. (see ”What it is like to be a bat? https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/cross_fac/iatl/study/ugmodules/hum...) Yes, we can describe their vocalizations in terms of peak frequencies, RMS, center frequencies, duration, intensity, inter-click-intervals for burst pulses or sperm whale codas, but what does it all mean? The biggest struggle is not even that, but how to conceptualize their communication system. Naturally, being humans, we want it to have semantics, grammar, pragmatics and phonetics, and if it does not, they must be dumb (i.e. Chomsky’s argument). So we search for the smallest unit (a phoneme) and naturally we cannot find it.

Additionally, we know that dolphins have at least 2 sound generators (and possibly up to 4) that could work simultaneously and independently, potentially producing very complex utterances. On top of that, we have an animal that “sees” the world through sound, it must have at least some contribution to how the communication system is set up. The conventional belief as of now is that echolocation is separate from communication, although Dr. John Lilly was convinced that dolphins could use echolocation to describe things in their environment (to be clear, we have no scientific support for this hypothesis).

That is why describing dolphin whistles and other sounds terms of duration, peak frequencies, infliction points, etc., does not help at all, as it does not help us to understand how the communication system is set up and what this whistle actually means (and why is it used). The only positive thing in all that is that there must be some sort of communication system. If you ever encounter a pod (especially the offshore species) you would be amazed at their constant chat. So much energy is spent on all these utterances they must be important and must have at least some meaning.

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