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We Have Ruined Childhood

nytimes.com

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Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#291

Post by alkonaut »

big_chungus wrote: post #169

This is what is called a "positional arms race". A comparable situation can be seen in football players and steroids. One does it, so all feel they must do it or be "left behind". For all this struggle, no one is better and most are where they started. Now they must also deal with the huge medical issues that steroids can cause. If every one stopped, all would be better. However, no one wants to be the "sucker" who s…

The question is, why aren't more outcomes acceptable? Why do parents feel a social pressure to make heir kids belong to a certain percentile of "successful" young adults? It could be many explanations, but it's definitely more prominent in the US and China (among middle class/upper middle class) than in e.g. the Netherlands or Sweden. So let's ask: what's the difference? Why do I not need to take my kids to extra curricular activities, and instead I trust I can leave them to play with rocks till it gets dark just like I did myself when I was a kid in the 80's?

I think it's down to many factors that makes society less competitive:

- I know that if my kid screws up, they'll still be comfortable (have healthcare, pension,...)

- Higher education is free so It's not an "investment" or a "risk" that needs to pay off for me or them. I hope they'll study because they find it interesting. If they do, they won't need a great career to pay of student debt.

- Admission to higher education is never made on soft or arbitrary values such as past participation in extra curricular activities. If my kid scores better on the standardized tests, they'll snag a position at the best school over any a kid that is the child of a billionaire who was always president of all clubs and plays 24 musical instruments.

- Education isn't very competitive. In 20 years of school I never saw a "ranking" where anyones results or grades were published, e.g. where someone was declared "top of class" or similar.

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#292

Post by bildung »

masonic wrote: post #240
moultano wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"During a meal at a restaurant" is the time parents are most likely to get them out. Don't assume that generalizes to when they're at home and have lots of options of what to do while waiting for dinner. Keeping kids quiet and happy while they're hungry and waiting is the hardest part of going out to eat with young kids. We use crayons and paper, but I don't think that's so intrinsically better than an iPad.

That's fine, when it never becomes the all-purpose go-to pacifier. I remember being at an NHL game where a kid was immersed in his device the entire night, despite being in a $148 seat to (IMHO) the most attention-maintaining of all sports. Having never been taken to a major league sporting event for my entire childhood, seeing this saddened me.

In my view there is no qualitative difference between those two activities. Both are just different modes of consumption. Actually playing the sport would be something different, though.

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#293

Post by dmje »

You guys in the States have it bad. I hear terrible stories about the fear that now surrounds any kind of freedom for kids. Over here in the UK we’re a bit better, but the “give them exams ALL the time” and schools being on their knees, financially, are all too familiar.

For me, this journey with my kids has been about a massive slew of things, among the most important:

- extending their childhood where possible: encouraging actual play (and discouraging the pseudo-play of screens) - letting them out: outside play when they’re younger (my kids dicked about in streams and woods from about 5/6 years old); now they’re older (14/12) they take themselves off swimming, into town, to the shops, on the bus to the nearest city 2 hours away, etc - reading, reading, reading. Always. - talking and appreciating them as adults and not as kids. This means trying not to patronise, being adult when talking about politics, religion, sex - being more present: for example, I’ve had a Nokia 3310 rather than a smartphone for more than a year now, and a large part of this has been about not being constantly distracted when I’m with other people, particularly my kids - be there: work less, hangout more. I work for myself, but never evenings or weekends, these are family time. I’m gonna be poor and will probably never retire but these years with my kids are as important as it gets. I’d rather be poor forever and have had this time with them. It’s all too short.

Kids need all the love, but too often this becomes smothering.

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#294

Post by konart »

parasubvert wrote: post #286

It’s a strange article from an outside-US perspective. My 2.5 year old in daycare has lots of play time (at least 3 hours a day), plus at an hour at home in the morning and evening. Usually about 1 hour is on the iPad (Toca Blocks is her free play game), the rest with books, blocks, in the garden with flowers, on her tricycle... The 9 year old’s “before and after school” program is all about free play time, plus two…

>the Journal of Abnormal Psychology found that between 2009 and 2017, rates of depression rose by more than 60 percent among those ages 14 to 17, and 47 percent among those ages 12 to 13.

I also find this article strange, from where I live 12-15 year olds have plenty of free time and time to play. And after 16, well, it is to be expected to have less free time. You are about to become an adult.

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#295

Post by Grzegrzolka »

parasubvert wrote: post #286

It’s a strange article from an outside-US perspective. My 2.5 year old in daycare has lots of play time (at least 3 hours a day), plus at an hour at home in the morning and evening. Usually about 1 hour is on the iPad (Toca Blocks is her free play game), the rest with books, blocks, in the garden with flowers, on her tricycle... The 9 year old’s “before and after school” program is all about free play time, plus two…

USA is just slowly rotting away. From what I read here about how modern life in US looks like I seriously suspect that there will be some kind of massive epidemic mind deseases outburst there in 15-30 years.

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#296

Post by konart »

aiyodev wrote: post #231
maire wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure how old you are but everything seemed to change when abducted children were put on milk cartons in the mid 1980s. Before that, kids roamed free. I tell my foreign friends that kids used to run the streets in America and they can hardly believe it. The funny thing is that the danger of "stranger abductions" has been over blown. Most abductions are non-custodial parents.

Which countries still allow children to grow up free?

Russia. (the irony)

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#297

Post by dgellow »

aiyodev wrote: post #231
maire wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure how old you are but everything seemed to change when abducted children were put on milk cartons in the mid 1980s. Before that, kids roamed free. I tell my foreign friends that kids used to run the streets in America and they can hardly believe it. The funny thing is that the danger of "stranger abductions" has been over blown. Most abductions are non-custodial parents.

Which countries still allow children to grow up free?

Any country in Western Europe.

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#298

Post by code_duck »

oska wrote: post #234
code_duck wrote: post #179

This isn’t anything new. In my 90s middle school and high school, the official policy of my school was that we would have an hour of homework per academic class each day. We got out of school at 3:30. With 5 academic classes, a typical bedtime of 10 o’clock, commute times from school of half an hour, and an hour for dinner, that theoretically left zero time for recreation. I’m confused about how they ever thought tha…

I had to re-read your comment. At first I thought you were saying you had one hour of homework per night. One hour per class per day is insane. I regularly avoided doing homework throughout my school life. The only thing I think that suffered was my understanding of physics & chemistry. I doubt I would have better understanding now in any other subject area if I had done more homework, including maths and the foreign…

I would rarely do any homework, because I was way more interested in using my Amiga, but I paid close attention in class. For many classes, the way the grading worked out would be that I would get an A for participation, an A for all of the quizzes and tests because I was paying attention knew the material, and an F or D homework, which would work out to a D (65%) in the class. It doesn’t really make any sense considering that the tests proved that I learned the material.

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#299

Post by bildung »

weiming wrote: post #74
roasm wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes, my kids will say they're bored. My response to them is that my job is not to entertain them. They totally get it, though sometimes they're still bored...

Why not plan an activity or build something together?

Because that would solve that particular situation, but wouldn't be good for the kid overall. Situations like these are where kids learn introspection (what is it I actually would like to do now?) and emotional autonomy (I can create a good experience by myself), resulting in the idea of self-efficacy, which, beside the cognitive abilities, is the skill to have to successfully navigate the stressfull and anxious situations of adult life.

Think about you adult life: When are the moments you have some kind of epiphany about something that currently bothers you? For many people this happens when out for a walk, under the shower or a similar situation when the own mind is free to wander.

Cognitive development is important, but school, discourse with parents etc. is usually enough for the healthy development of most kids. For a successful life as an adult, the emotional development is just as important, though.

Re: We Have Ruined Childhood

#300

Post by bildung »

Red_Tarsius wrote: post #123
shioyama wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids need time with their friends away from parents. I'm so glad I was able to grow up in the (sadly last) "be home for dinner, be back by dark" generation. Completely agree with your comment, but "sadly last" here is not accurate unless you're talking about North America and maybe Europe. I live in Japan and it's quite normal, even in a big city like Tokyo, to let kids play on their own until it gets dark. I feel…

Apples and oranges. Japan is one of the safest countries in the world. - Murder rate (per year per 100,000 inhabitants) Japan: 0.20 USA: 5.30 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... - Rape rate (number of rape incidents per 100,000 citizens) Japan: 1.0 USA: 27.3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

This hardly matters because both of these types of crime usually happen within the family, not by the hand of strangers.

[0] murder: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf (page 16)

[1] rape: https://www.rainn.org/statistics/perpetrators-sexual-violenc...

Stats-wise, it would be best for the kids to stay clear of their family ;)

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